Transcript of unchat class session, March 11

Hello. -- David Bowen speak

So you made it, Joanne! -- David Bowen speak

Type into the message box and hit . -- David Bowen speak

And hello to Andrea too! -- David Bowen speak

Angela, hellow. -- David Bowen speak

Greetings to all! -- Andrea Harp

Now did you all see Andrea's name flash when she "spoke?" -- David Bowen speak

Good evening everyone -- Angela Ireland

Yes, Andrea and I are at our offices, like you.... -- Joanne Lewan

So I will have a Martha Stewart joke (true) to start out with. -- David Bowen speak

Good evening Angela. -- Joanne Lewan

When you post, it comes to me, and I feed it through. That way, I can keep the topics in order. -- David Bowen speak

I really don't STOP anyone - never have, never will. -- David Bowen speak

If you type in the message box and click "whipser", then that message goes to just one person, privately. You get a list to choose from. -- David Bowen speak

Meliis's here! -- David Bowen speak

Oh darn, I thought I would use my shout... -- Joanne Lewan

That's fine, Joanne. You get three - we voted last Saturday. -- David Bowen speak

100 whipsers. -- David Bowen speak

whispers (no spell check here! -- David Bowen speak

Wow, that's a lot of whistpers...... -- Joanne Lewan

that's not fair.....we didn't get to vote on friday..... -- Melissa Small

You see the VOTE button there - you can set up a vote at any time. -- David Bowen speak

Oops, forgot to check spelling. -- Joanne Lewan

what are whipsers?? -- Melissa Small

Whipsers are private comments to just one person. They appear on that person's screen in brackets [] -- David Bowen speak

Welcome Melissa -- Angela Ireland

Does everyone have the Agenda? -- David Bowen speak

i was joking because you spelled it wrong..... -- Melissa Small

sorry....i forgot to say hello to everyone... -- Melissa Small

hi everyone -- Jennifer Levine

Yes -- Angela Ireland

You'd better remind us what that was about, Angela - you see how confusing a chat can be. -- David Bowen speak

hi all -- Erich Friebel

yes....i have it.... -- Melissa Small

Hi jennifer and yes, I have my agenda. -- Andrea Harp

Hi Jennifer and Melissa. -- Joanne Lewan

hello? -- Ryan Partington

hi everybody! -- Ryan Partington

i was just raiding the freezer for my SF / FF popsicles... -- Melissa Small

Yes, I have my agenda. -- Joanne Lewan

hello everyone.... -- Melissa Small

hi ryan -- Jennifer Levine

I do. -- Joanne Lewan

OK, so here is somethat about martha Stewart . -- David Bowen speak

While she was in jail, she got on Forbes's list of the richest people in the world. -- David Bowen speak

When she got out, the stock price fell, and she is now off the list. -- David Bowen speak

So some think she will break parole to get back in ;-) -- David Bowen speak

In the old days jail meant punishment. -- Shirley Miller

haha! -- Ryan Partington

i thought she had already reached that level....i know that her stock went up while she was there... -- Melissa Small

that's ironic -- Jennifer Levine

hello Eric and hello Ryan. -- Andrea Harp

Hello everyone -- Laura Miller

While Martha was in jail it seemed like nothing stopped as far as her riches -- Laura Miller

Hi Laura. -- Andrea Harp

Ha ha.... Doesn't matter she's still rich. -- Joanne Lewan

Hello Ryan -- Joanne Lewan

OK. -- David Bowen speak

This chat will be archived, and the archive will be posted for those that miss. Even whipsers show up, so be warned! -- David Bowen speak

Hi Andrea -- Laura Miller

the news frenzy probably had something to do with her stock rising- all the publicity meant that consumers might pick her brand over another one just because "hey- its martha stewart brand" -- Ryan Partington

Hi Laura. -- Joanne Lewan

The fact that Martha is reach explains some of her sentencing -- Jennifer Levine

Hi Eric... -- Joanne Lewan

you guys are too much... -- Melissa Small

And reminders about the Third books. Futuring is great (so is The Lexus and the Olive Tree.) I have posted reading questions (Essay questions) for each of them, now. -- David Bowen speak

Yeah- how often do people get early parole, house arrest, etc? -- Ryan Partington

OK, enough Martha! -- David Bowen speak

I still like Martha's stuff and most of her supporters will still purchase her stuff and watch her show. -- Joanne Lewan

Oh, I guess not. -- David Bowen speak

I think that it was some kind of publicity stunt -- Laura Miller

and i mean that in a good way..... -- Melissa Small

I meant "rich" not "reach" -- Jennifer Levine

Figured that out. -- David Bowen speak

Hi Joanne -- Laura Miller

well it is the same thing with rappers... If they get arrested their music sells more -- Jennifer Levine

It does not matter that she is on house arrest, she is doing what she loves -- Laura Miller

Martha postings will be ignored! -- David Bowen speak

From now on, that is. -- David Bowen speak

not all rappers get arrested -- Erich Friebel

OK, now I am bouncing back all Martha postings! POWER!!! -- David Bowen speak

You will have to SHOUT to get one through now!!! -- David Bowen speak

hail to the king -- Erich Friebel

OK, how do you make up a posting? -- David Bowen speak

Anyone? -- David Bowen speak

david ...if you don't have a migrane by the end of the night i will be totally surprised..... -- Melissa Small

by posting one -- Ryan Partington

Right. -- David Bowen speak

go and add posting -- Jennifer Levine

By posting of course! -- Andrea Harp

With a posting -- Joanne Lewan

do another one -- Erich Friebel

OK, how do you make up an Essay? -- David Bowen speak

by turning it in -- Ryan Partington

type the essay and insert it on moodle -- Jennifer Levine

answer the questions on the syllabus.... -- Melissa Small

While reading if I read something that resonates with me I mark it and reflect on its meaning and then post -- Shirley Miller

Good method. -- David Bowen speak

How do you make up a missed class? -- David Bowen speak

Notify Dr. Bown and submit the essay by the final deadline. -- Joanne Lewan -- David Bowen speak

This is about an Essay, right? -- David Bowen speak

By doing an extra posting? -- Shirley Miller

No. -- David Bowen speak

To make up a missed class, write a page on what you missed. -- Joanne Lewan

Yes. -- David Bowen speak

I have been doing extra postings -- Laura Miller

That's fine. -- David Bowen speak

where did my answer go?????? -- Melissa Small

If the question has already been answered, your answer generally disappears (I delete it,actually.) -- David Bowen speak

Trying to keep things orderly here. -- David Bowen speak

Mr Linear, that's me. -- David Bowen speak

i thought you had to do a summary of the class notes to make up for a class -- Melissa Small

That's right, that is waht was said. -- David Bowen speak

Girl they keep getting lost -- Laura Miller

writing an essay summarizing the notes -- Ryan Partington

Doesn't have to be an essay - a one page summary. -- David Bowen speak

that is where my answer went,......... -- Melissa Small

Sometimes. -- David Bowen speak

if you have missed one it is ok, after 2 you need to write an extrra paper -- Jennifer Levine

Missed a class, you mean. -- David Bowen speak

type a one page summary of the notes -- Erich Friebel

you do a summary of the class minutes... -- Melissa Small

correct -- Jennifer Levine

I usually respond to other postings -- Laura Miller

That's about postings, right? -- David Bowen speak

so far I have not missed any classes but I really want to catch up -- Laura Miller

Right. -- David Bowen speak

By the way, unchat is taking attendance tonight. -- David Bowen speak

And how do you make up a missed weekly report? -- David Bowen speak

I figured you'd get attendance tonight. -- Joanne Lewan

You make up a missed weekly report with a posting. -- Joanne Lewan

By doing an extra posting. -- Shirley Miller

do a posting -- Erich Friebel

All coreect. -- David Bowen speak

correct. -- David Bowen speak

doing an extra posting -- Laura Miller

ohhhh! thanks for letting me know that one -- Ryan Partington

By doing additional posting. -- Angela Ireland

Yup, yup, yup. -- David Bowen speak

OK. -- David Bowen speak

Now I want to finish up some stuff from Feb 25. -- David Bowen speak

On the Agenda, I filled in what I think goes in the boxs we didn't get to then. -- David Bowen speak

I just checked on Andrea she is having a problem getting her responses in. -- Joanne Lewan

She can call me for help - 313-577-1498 -- David Bowen speak

yeah, mines is moving slow also -- Laura Miller

I think Andrea's was slower than slow. -- David Bowen speak

A missed class requires writing a page on the missed material. By doing an extra posting! thanks for spreading my business Joanne (chuckle). -- Andrea Harp

??? -- David Bowen speak

Looks like Andrea rested on the key! -- David Bowen speak

sorry......i was trying to get in touch with sean..... -- Melissa Small

a little tip: for those of you with pop-up blockers installed, you have to hold down the control key when entering the chat room -- Ryan Partington

I'm here I think -- Andrea Harp

Yes, Andrea, there you are. -- David Bowen speak

Yes I'm here! -- Andrea Harp

so what's going on? -- Erich Friebel

I'm pushing us through the Agneda. -- David Bowen speak

Agenda -- David Bowen speak

Hey girl what happend to you?, I started to send out an APB -- Laura Miller

On slide 43, the basis for wealth in an Agricultural society was owning or controlling land. -- David Bowen speak

sean....glad you could make it.......... -- Melissa Small

Good evening - sorry I'm late. Just returned home from work. -- Sean Cumming

Are we gonna get down and dirty on the unchat? -- Erich Friebel

??? -- David Bowen speak

Can you swear? -- David Bowen speak

Go ahead! -- David Bowen speak

who swore? -- Erich Friebel

What do you mean by down and dirty? -- David Bowen speak

Down to business!!! -- Erich Friebel

I'm trying! -- David Bowen speak

Ha ha ha -- Sean Cumming

go -- Erich Friebel

LOL -- Laura Miller

OK, land is the basis for wealth in an Agricultural society. -- David Bowen speak

In Industrial society, it is owning a factory. -- David Bowen speak

Since land is limited, but you can build many facotires or office s on even a small plot of land, this allows more choices in an Industrial society. -- David Bowen speak

si -- Erich Friebel

si -- Erich Friebel

back to slide 43? -- Ryan Partington

Since both are a vehicle for production? -- Sean Cumming

Not necessarily production (that being an industrial term), but that is what you want. -- David Bowen speak

whats the basis for wealth today? -- Shirley Miller

Ah!. I don't think we're quite sure. Some say Information. -- David Bowen speak

And that is even less limited than factoreis. -- David Bowen speak

The Republican Party -- Erich Friebel

Ha ha - good one. -- David Bowen speak

there are so many types of weatlh....it depends on which type... -- Melissa Small

some say technology -- Laura Miller

Land is still the basis for wealth in some people's eyes because your property is your basic wealth. -- Andrea Harp

Your yard is generally an expense now. -- David Bowen speak

it certainly does seem very arbitrary- wealth is concentrated in huge amounts amongst a social elite in our times -- Ryan Partington

Yes - but generaly more people are well off than in an Agricultural society for example. There, the king a d a few nobles were rich, and most people were peasants. -- David Bowen speak

True-the land we pay on (most will never own it nowdays) is stil our biggest investment. -- Andrea Harp

No - your house. But you don't make any money - or at least not much - off of your yard. -- David Bowen speak

You can't live off your yard. -- David Bowen speak

How about manufactured wealth, stock, information etc. -- Shirley Miller

I agree with Dr. Bowen, securing and maintaing property is costly. -- Joanne Lewan

Yes, for exanother example, children used to be productive for farms. Now kids are an expense, at least financially. -- David Bowen speak

only if you produce vegetables and sale them -- Laura Miller

OK - who is doing that here? -- David Bowen speak

land is a good investment....but does that mean we are wealthy if we own land.... -- Melissa Small

For development, yes. You want to sell it then. -- David Bowen speak

i agree that there wasnt really a middle ground in agricultural society- there wasnt really a middle class- but nowadays 99 percent of the wealth in the world is controlled by 1 percent of its population -- Ryan Partington

Yes, Ify ou own property, that is your wealth -- Laura Miller

Your house increases in value today, but your yard is only a small part of the value. -- David Bowen speak

i think all of us have our own opinions of what wealth is and means to us... -- Melissa Small

Well, the tendency is there. You got money by controlling land in Ag Society. -- David Bowen speak

It's almost as if the economic elite of today....those 250 people that make up 50% of the worlds monetary value....can also manipulate the information...buying such things as political viewpoints, by throwing money at people, hence controlling the flow of information -- Sean Cumming

I think wealth can be obtained at many levels: by how much money you have, how many friends you have and so forth. -- Joanne Lewan

noone i know of purchases a house with a yard to make a profit off of growing food or building a factory there -- Ryan Partington

Right. -- David Bowen speak

Everything you're saying is true-but people still feel that their property is their greatest asset financially. -- Andrea Harp

Your house, yes. Your yard, not so much. -- David Bowen speak

But the middle class now a days is more wealthy than a peasant could ever dream of -- Erich Friebel -- Erich Friebel

Absolutely. The way we get money is MUCH more open to many people getting at least SOME. -- David Bowen speak

only because of the investment factor and the money that you can get from seling it -- Ryan Partington

land doesnt really have an inherent value to it unless it can yield production or agriculture -- Ryan Partington

individual wealth -- Shirley Miller

Third wave society has less limits -- Jennifer Levine

Yes - each of us has more power. -- David Bowen speak

More autonomy. -- David Bowen speak

This is where I think Toffler got it very right. -- David Bowen speak

Some of the other things, like family conflict, not so right. -- David Bowen speak

Another place where he is off is, I think, all the "small is beautiful stuff" -- David Bowen speak

It turns out that big oragnizations distribute or deliver stuff better than small ones. -- David Bowen speak

Yes, I think Toffler does make the Third Wave sound a little flowery. -- Joanne Lewan

i enjoyed reading the third wave....am having a difficult time warming up to the smart machine.... -- Melissa Small

It is not really a conspiracy of the rich controlling the rest. It is the grand pecking order. -- Erich Friebel

I agree. We are getting toward more autonomy. -- Joanne Lewan

sorry- i forgot to mention- India IS industrialized but has an extremely unbalanced distribution of wealth -- Ryan Partington

its still subject to the control of the oligarchy- it is well known that you have to keep the peasants happy- maybe now its more a case of keeping the middle class happy- but only in industrialized countries- India has millions of 'untouchables' in the lower castes who are in a pretty sordid state even in 2005 -- Ryan Partington

yeah, the third wave is easier reading -- Laura Miller

More freedom to choose how we manage our money (power), and how much we get into debt (lose power) -- Sean Cumming

We have more freedom. Or atleast the rich allow us more. -- Erich Friebel

yes, we all know about investing -- Laura Miller

Basically, if you look at all of those comparisons between Ag and Ind society, it seems to me that poeopple have more choices in the second. -- David Bowen speak

We sure are getting good class participation today. Better than in person. -- Joanne Lewan

Do we have to read the ENTIRE Smart machine? (Just kidding) it is kinda thick... -- Andrea Harp

The last ten pages is the kicker - the reason it's in the class. -- David Bowen speak

we have way more autonomy than the peasants in the middle ages- this is good- but we are also needed in different ways to support the rich- uneducated farmers dont make good blue collar workers -- Ryan Partington

we have more options now and are not judged for it -- Jennifer Levine

Yes, even inductrial society had fairly strict social roles. -- David Bowen speak

andrea...too funny....... -- Melissa Small

david...thanks for the CHEATing tip.... -- Melissa Small

thanks laura...i thought i was the only one who felt this way.... -- Melissa Small

erich- my thoughts exactly -- Ryan Partington

OK, so more autonomy, so we get our choices, so we buy more stuff and everyone gets richer - maybe not rich, but someone said it here - we are much better off, on the average, than in Ag or Ind socieity. -- David Bowen speak

But still, there are social roles. I want to mention how this happens. -- David Bowen speak

All right I'll bite what cheating tip? -- Shirley Miller

OK - let's answer that one! -- David Bowen speak

Melissa? -- David Bowen speak

Melissa's being quiet! -- David Bowen speak

read the last 10 pages of the smart machine........ -- Melissa Small

OK! -- David Bowen speak

Now I get it. -- David Bowen speak

Only read the last 10 pages of the Smart Machine to see why it is in our class material. -- Joanne Lewan

But you won't understand them without the other pages. -- David Bowen speak

smart machine is the third book, right? -- Ryan Partington

Second book. -- David Bowen speak

Futuring is the third one. -- David Bowen speak

In the bookstore now!!! -- David Bowen speak

bring it on...I want to hear about the social aspects. -- Sean Cumming

gotcha -- Ryan Partington

no the smart machine is the second book -- Laura Miller

ohh i thought it was On Futuring -- Ryan Partington

Nope - Futuring. It is very good, I think. Just came out. -- David Bowen speak

Not quite so large scal os Toffler - more how can YOU use it. -- David Bowen speak

My dog ate all of my books -- Sean Cumming

Smart dog, must be (after eathing them) -- David Bowen speak

Will Futuring tell us where to invest? -- Shirley Miller

Nope. -- David Bowen speak

Investing is interesting. -- David Bowen speak

Information or biotech, you would think. -- David Bowen speak

But lots of people went broke investing in cars, even though the industry grew mightlily -- David Bowen speak

Sad truth - a new industry will grow, but most companies in it will fail. -- David Bowen speak

Or alternative energy -- Erich Friebel

i wish i understood investing more...i have 21 years of investing at DCX and really have no idea how to read the report... -- Melissa Small

How about alternative fuel investing -- Erich Friebel

I thought futuring is all about predicting where the good investments would be. -- Shirley Miller

That's futures markets. Different. -- David Bowen speak

LOL....now you know better than to have your dog near your bookbag -- Laura Miller

only if you have money to invest -- Ryan Partington

i thought dogs were limited to eating homework......... -- Melissa Small

My dog ate my essays -- Erich Friebel

The files? -- David Bowen speak

I'll start investing as soon as I have the $$ -- Erich Friebel

You dog ate your essay file? Haven't heard that one before! -- David Bowen speak

LOL...I think your dog has been trained to eat all paper items -- Laura Miller

The whole computer -- Erich Friebel

A -- Joanne Lewan

yup-hydrogen fuel will suddenly 'become' viable as soon as we clear Iraq and get the Third World dependent on oil and chinese cars -- Ryan Partington

david...i heard earlier in the week that as of 2006 delphi will no longer pay benefits for retirees...do you think this trend will increase to the big three???? -- Melissa Small

I hope not. I hope this is not a "race to the bottom." -- David Bowen speak

Erich, don't let too much time go by -- Laura Miller

I would like to know about investing. What to invest in? How much money do I need? -- Angela Ireland

We lost a lot of money on the stock market, getting advice from top-rate comapnies. -- David Bowen speak

Wer -- Erich Friebel

We're going to take a different path than Europe -- Erich Friebel

I think a lot of social benefits in the US will be going private. -- Erich Friebel

Yeah...he just opened his own distribution business...selling imported mind reading stock brokers -- Sean Cumming

Smart dog -- Shirley Miller

Just remember that investing is a gamble too..... -- Sean Cumming

Always a gamble. -- David Bowen speak

Europe being headed into socialism -- Erich Friebel

WJLB actually has an investment guru on weekdays at about 7:00 am...she is pretty good... -- Melissa Small

New topic.,\ -- David Bowen speak

investing in anything but conservative stock scares me.... -- Melissa Small

I don't think we will be able to trust the market any longer for investing. -- Joanne Lewan

New topic. -- David Bowen speak

While we are creating the future, one by one, we are creating new social organizations. -- David Bowen speak

Religion? -- Erich Friebel

New types of religions, sure. -- David Bowen speak

Cults. -- Joanne Lewan

Among others. -- David Bowen speak

No more stocks unless you shout! -- David Bowen speak

OK. -- David Bowen speak

After we create those organizations, we have to conform to them. -- David Bowen speak

Community....I like Toffler's idea that people will form small communities or their own interests and possibly we will run our own government. -- Joanne Lewan

The best example of this back-and-forth, I think, is the car. -- David Bowen speak

At first, cars were toys for hobbyists. -- David Bowen speak

Dr. B-can you remember what you were going to say about social issues? I was interested but we got sidetracked. -- Andrea Harp

Don't worry, we're back on track -- David Bowen speak

Conforming to a never-changing organization is boring. -- Shirley Miller

Not if it's new! -- David Bowen speak

yeah because things keep jumping around -- Laura Miller

Either conform, or continuesly ccreate and modify -- Sean Cumming

Yes, we go through trends really quickly these days. -- David Bowen speak

But they don't stay new for long. -- Shirley Miller

There is a lot of resistance for religion to change. What happens when people start losing belief in the authenticity of there religion? -- Erich Friebel

But there are very new types of religion out there now. -- David Bowen speak

Have you heard of punk churches? -- David Bowen speak

i like changing trends but not when it affects social benefits, etc -- Ryan Partington

Punk churches? -- David Bowen speak

And those big multimedia churches? -- David Bowen speak

punk churches? no WAY -- Ryan Partington

Yup - all of that punk negativism, but it's all for God. -- David Bowen speak

Dr. Wayne Dyer is cool on PBS -- Erich Friebel

No. I haven't heard about puck churches. -- Joanne Lewan

hahaha -- Ryan Partington

They are out there! I will post the reference I read. -- David Bowen speak

with religion you have to be careful about your leader. -- Laura Miller

Sometimes. The church I belong to - Quakers - our leader doesn't do very much. -- David Bowen speak

Maryann Williamson is great -- Shirley Miller

No? What is a punk church? -- Andrea Harp

I will post something on this. -- David Bowen speak

They will be judged by their fruit -- Erich Friebel

Well, maybe by their mailing list! -- David Bowen speak

I have heard of Punk FItness, every tuesday at the Belmont in Hamtramck- people excercise to 70's punk rock and then drink beer at the bar when they're done- Sounds ludicrous, but at least the rockers are getting a cardiovascular workout without being addicted to speed- haha -- Ryan Partington

I stopped going to synagogue because I didn't feel any of it was relevant to my life -- Jennifer Levine

You have a lot more choices today. -- David Bowen speak

LOL -- Laura Miller

Erich's getting agricultural. -- Shirley Miller

Yeah Erich,. take that! -- David Bowen speak

ditto on maryann williamson.... -- Melissa Small

I no nothing about a punk church. -- Angela Ireland

What was your point about cars going back and forth? -- Joanne Lewan

never heard of them. -- Melissa Small

They will be judged by the speed of their processor -- Erich Friebel

Some hardliners say that the society changes but God doesn't -- Erich Friebel

But there are others - that is my point. -- David Bowen speak

Because of the nature of the American, I feel we have become somewhat too sensitive to the feelings and beliefs of newcomers...and cannot continue to hide our founding principles -- Sean Cumming

OK, so cars. -- David Bowen speak

Early on, cars were for hobbyists. -- David Bowen speak

No road.s -- David Bowen speak

Couldn't do much. -- David Bowen speak

Then we built roads, built the suburbs, starting living far apart and far from work. -- David Bowen speak

Now you pretty much HAVe to have a car. -- David Bowen speak

But now they can lock us in traffic -- Erich Friebel

no traffic laws -- Sean Cumming

I agree with E. Friebel, society changes but God doesn't -- Angela Ireland

Well, there are lots of beliefs out there, more than before. Maybe Your God doesn't change, but other people now have different views. -- David Bowen speak

it's really gonna suck when gas prices hit $2.50 this summer -- Jennifer Levine

Yup. -- David Bowen speak

Soon you will have to be wealthy to own a car and pay for gas (petrolium) -- Joanne Lewan

I don't believe what I said about God not Changing. I think He/She reveals to us what we can understand at a certaing point in time -- Erich Friebel

God is a lot frieldlier to women these days. -- David Bowen speak

And African Amercians -- David Bowen speak

We use to quote the Bible a lot more saying how women should be subservient. -- David Bowen speak

but not to muslims, apparently -- Ryan Partington

We'll see - I think we will impr9ove there. -- David Bowen speak

You must be speaking of a 1st Wave car... -- Andrea Harp

Second wave car. -- David Bowen speak

What do you mean by that African Americans comment -- Laura Miller

We used to quote the Bible saying that God did not mean African Americans should be equal. -- David Bowen speak

We did. -- David Bowen speak

I left the church because people were not friendly and it didn't help me when I was going through rought times. I live by my own rules, love of people and take care of myself. -- Joanne Lewan

We used to say that the Bible supported slavery. -- David Bowen speak

by we you mean WASPS in the south, right? -- Ryan Partington

Well, before then, more than them. -- David Bowen speak

It was a transition. -- David Bowen speak

Its all a conspiracy by the oil tycoons....to continue to use gas as fuel. The tech. is there...but why would the elite want to give up there investment... -- Sean Cumming

God has NO perspective a person -- Laura Miller

??? -- David Bowen speak

The crusades couldn't do the whole job -- Erich Friebel

According to Christianity. Slavery "saved" the slaves. -- Erich Friebel

Now, we don't quote the Bible that way any more. -- David Bowen speak

we've moved backwards to the crusades -- Ryan Partington

War saved the slaves.... -- Sean Cumming

Cars are the devil -- Erich Friebel

OK, here's the point about cars. -- David Bowen speak

We created that system, built it up, and now we have to conform to it - we need a car, where it started out as a toy. -- David Bowen speak

African Americans were not the only people that were slaves -- Laura Miller

Slavery was the rule in Agricultural society. -- David Bowen speak

true -- Sean Cumming

I'm talking about American slaves -- Erich Friebel

There were slaves the world over. -- David Bowen speak

The Greeks had them. -- David Bowen speak

Aristotle was a slave. -- David Bowen speak

These topics are moving extremely fast. Religion and cars where are we? -- Angela Ireland

Well, I'm staying close to cars now. -- David Bowen speak

war did not save the slaves, we still have slavery to date, you just do not hear about it as much -- Laura Miller

No - economic slavery, but not actual ownership of peplle. Not in the West. -- David Bowen speak

agricultural societies around the world might still have slaves, -- David Bowen speak

never knew that about Aristotle-I took Philosphy and letters and that never came up while we studied Aristotle. Interesting. -- Andrea Harp

Yes...in a different manner, sure. I do agree with you Laura -- Sean Cumming

Women were slaves and still are in some countries or at least treated like slaves. -- Joanne Lewan

Yes - in Ag socieity, the women was bought from her family with a dowry. -- David Bowen speak

Amen to that Joanne -- Shirley Miller

no government that i know of legally allows slavery -- Ryan Partington

Cars are the reason we live like we do. Houses, schools, retail, work all separated from one another. If things were more interspersed Mass transit would make more sense. Instead of moving from work to home to the store we would be travelling between regions. -- Erich Friebel

If you work in today's world we're all slaves to the economic system! -- Andrea Harp

WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

were all slaves for the man -- Jennifer Levine

WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

I believe slavery is now the lifestyle society confronts us with. -- Angela Ireland

WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

You need to take a class on immigration it may broaden your horizons -- Laura Miller

Yes, Erich, we are very dependent on our cars. -- Joanne Lewan

The credit union owns quite a few folks around here! -- Andrea Harp

WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

yes, joanne, thank you -- Laura Miller

Was Aristotle really a slave? -- Shirley Miller

not everybody believes in the same thiiing -- Jennifer Levine

LOL Andrea -- Laura Miller

the crusades never ended, and now we are engaged in a bloodbath over religion and moral pompousness -- Ryan Partington

Aren't we owned during the time we spend in income pursuring activities? -- Shirley Miller

??? WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

Yes Shirley -- Laura Miller

A slave is someone's property, like a piece of lumber. -- David Bowen speak

Burn it if you want, it is yours. -- David Bowen speak

I think that the big three has a lot to do with the reason Detroit is so far behind other metropolitan areas when it comes to mass transit. -- Erich Friebel

Here is the point - we created the car system, and now we have to conform to it. -- David Bowen speak

exactly dr B -- Ryan Partington

Why Erick? -- Joanne Lewan

This theory or concept is called "Strructuration." -- David Bowen speak

Structuration -- David Bowen speak

Bottom of page 2 on the Agenda. -- David Bowen speak

Concept developed by sociologist Anthony Giddens, very contemporary. -- David Bowen speak

I agree Erich, we have awful public transportation in this area because we are the "motor city" and expected to own a car -- Jennifer Levine

Sorry Erich I keep messing up your name. -- Joanne Lewan

hE'S USED TO IT, i BET. -- David Bowen speak

I know you keep saying we are not owned, but sometimes I think my car owns me-I'm still a slave to its payments, now the gas to run it. -- Andrea Harp

Oh Yeah. -- Erich Friebel

If the big three allowed mass transit in the region they would lose a lot of business. I'm sure they lobby Lansing to not sign mass transit bills -- Erich Friebel

we are not owned technically or legally- now whether we are trapped by societal pressure is another thing -- Ryan Partington

WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

structuration is a very buddhist kind of approach- you end up being owned by the things you own, etc. -- Ryan Partington

OK, then I have a list of trends on Pg 3 -- David Bowen speak

Disintermediation is an interesting one. -- David Bowen speak

In idnsutrial society, there is usualy an intermediary. -- David Bowen speak

A record company, for example, between the musicians and the fans. -- David Bowen speak

The control the business, they get rich, more so than the musicians. -- David Bowen speak

Did you hear about the huge discounts on cars because they have been on the lot for more than 125 days? -- Joanne Lewan

The Buddhists believe your desires and attachments own you -- Erich Friebel

WE ARE NOT OWNED!!! -- David Bowen speak

Unless you say that we own ourselves, maybe. -- David Bowen speak

You become a slave to your possessions. -- Shirley Miller

That is your choie. -- David Bowen speak

choice -- David Bowen speak

OK, disnintermediation -- David Bowen speak

disintermediation -- David Bowen speak

back to the intermediary thing -- Ryan Partington

Yup -- David Bowen speak

That is unless we are unattached, which is the point of religion -- Erich Friebel

We're moving on from relgiion. -- David Bowen speak

Except maybe for posting on the conference. -- David Bowen speak

If I can stur up some controversy, great! -- David Bowen speak

stir -- David Bowen speak

Every industry had its distributers -- David Bowen speak

They really got rich. -- David Bowen speak

Right, Ryan? Ryan's a musician. -- David Bowen speak

On to politics! -- Erich Friebel

On to disintermediation' -- David Bowen speak

The dream of a musican today is to get a record contract. -- David Bowen speak

Now, the Internet is making those intermidiarries irrelevant -- David Bowen speak

Like Amway? We can all be intermediaries -- Erich Friebel

Now we have direct connection. -- David Bowen speak

Between producers and consumer -- David Bowen speak

download your tunes from the Internet -- David Bowen speak

Right now I would just like to perform outside the basement rehearsal -- Erich Friebel

yes the industry had distrinutors but now since theres no record stores anymore and so much music piracy, most musicians except for the grammy winners, huge artists etc, sell their music online -- Ryan Partington

Yes, there is a problem with "the business model" - how are pople going to make a living in music. -- David Bowen speak

But the record comapines will probably be history. -- David Bowen speak

actually the dream USED to be a record contract- i hate to say it this way, but most record contracts are a now nothing more than a financial trap and -ahem- temporary slavery- hahahah -- Ryan Partington

The record executives are the really rich ones. -- David Bowen speak

Now the movie industry may be going the same way. -- David Bowen speak

The distributors are starting to get nervous. -- David Bowen speak

everything else can be pirated and stolen so easily -- Ryan Partington

as it stands now- the ONLY tangible sellable product in music (besides, gear, etc) is the experience of a live show -- Ryan Partington

Yes, every thing you want in music can be obtained on-line. Download. -- Angela Ireland

Right on Ryan! -- Erich Friebel

Well, there is live music over the Internet now. Some bands release only over the Internet. -- David Bowen speak

Of cours P. Diddy, and Snoop Dogg are rich. Have you seen their cribs? -- Erich Friebel

But that is g4etting harder and harder. -- David Bowen speak

The distributoers aren't needed as much. -- David Bowen speak

TYhe intermediaries. -- David Bowen speak

Hence, disintermediation. -- David Bowen speak

Even with live shows Ticketmaster is getting extremely wealthy. -- Shirley Miller

I have been research this IPod, great device for everyone. music, books, editorials. Someone is getting rich. -- Angela Ireland

nothing can replace the experience of being at a live concert, and so far is the only thing that cannot be stolen -- Ryan Partington

Can we heat up this conversation. Wayne State turns off the heat at 5 pm and I am feeling the cold. -- Joanne Lewan

live recordings maybe but like i said that stuff can be stolen -- Ryan Partington

nono -- Ryan Partington

even so, the live concert venues are mostly owned by giant monoliths like CLear CHannel -- Ryan Partington

New topic. -- David Bowen speak

The Human Footprint. -- David Bowen speak

Pg 4 -- David Bowen speak

I mean the total impact of human society on the natural world. -- David Bowen speak

Yes Angela, I had a friend to show me an ipod for the first time the other day -- Laura Miller

New topic! -- David Bowen speak

;-) -- David Bowen speak

Do not think of this only as pollution - that is a part. -- David Bowen speak

Ryan , you are right, I love live music especially jazz -- Laura Miller

A lot of people only think of live music in a large concert format. They don't think about the many local musicians striving to make a living in crappy little bars. -- Erich Friebel

Live concerts are very expensive. Cheaper by sattlelite. Right to your living room. -- Angela Ireland

New topic. -- David Bowen speak

You're dealing with Mr Linear here! -- David Bowen speak

Plant growth. -- David Bowen speak

We (humanity) are responsible for about 40% of plant growth on land today. -- David Bowen speak

ok gotta shout here- one last point in response to angela- you can watch a live show on TV but youre not REALLY THERE- thats what i mean- its not the same and the only way to get that experience is to physically go and buy a ticket -- Ryan Partington shout

Farming, yards, etc. -- David Bowen speak

That is almost half. -- David Bowen speak

So would Mt. Yucca and it's nuclear waste be considered part of the Human Footprint? -- Erich Friebel

Yes. -- David Bowen speak

Water is getting scarce around the globe -- David Bowen speak

That is part also. -- David Bowen speak

The Human Footprint:: We are really using up our resources fast and the population is growing too. Toffler saw this in 1970s why isn't anything moving forward fast er.... -- Joanne Lewan

OK - population is projected to grow from 6 billion to 9, globally - up 50% -- David Bowen speak

Aren't there ways to take the salt out of sea water and send it to the needy? -- Erich Friebel

Expensive -- David Bowen speak

Sorry...got booted off -- Sean Cumming

Melissa had problems too -- David Bowen speak

Is having, apparently -- David Bowen speak

Food - many are starving now, and there are more on the way -- David Bowen speak

Petroleum - we will probably start to run out soon -- David Bowen speak

Only Saudi Arabia now can increase production quickly. -- David Bowen speak

No big new discoveries in the past five years or so. -- David Bowen speak

It's amazing how much food is wasted....that there are people starving... -- Sean Cumming

We poroduce enough to feed everyone now, but yes, a lot is wasted. -- David Bowen speak

Mostly to rodents. -- David Bowen speak

Around the world, that is. -- David Bowen speak

With all of the natural disasters, like forest fires, floods, and mudslides, the earth is being damaged even further. Mt. St. helen's is acting up again-more destruction. -- Andrea Harp

It's not just the damage - we could stop our part in that. -- David Bowen speak

Rodents don't taste good either.... -- Sean Cumming

Plus, it takes ten pound of grain to grow one pound of animal (like rodent) -- David Bowen speak

Uuuuuuuuugggggggggghhhhhhh -- Laura Miller

the petroleum issue is going to be relegated to the third world now- i honestly think that is the plan- we vountarily import chinese cars for a while, let their industry take off, and then Mobil and Exxon will start producing cheap hydrogen fuel and the middle east will be in ruins and we'll be the economic leader again for a while -- Ryan Partington

People are too greedy to be completely socialist. -- Erich Friebel

Population growth demands for natural resource, clean air and water. Our environment will begin to suffer in the future. -- Angela Ireland

OK - we are using a lot, and it is only going to increas.e -- David Bowen speak

I'm not tellin' -- Sean Cumming

rodents need to eat too -- Jennifer Levine

yes -- Erich Friebel

Our environment is already suffering -- Laura Miller

It's not just pollution, though. -- David Bowen speak

It's the total human footprint I want to get across here now. -- David Bowen speak

has been -- Erich Friebel

I was a SURVIVOR extra -- Sean Cumming

I think you got kicked off, didn't you? I think I remember that. -- David Bowen speak

go -- Erich Friebel

If we had a true socialist system nothing would be wasted -- Erich Friebel

Hmmm. Socialism gave the central core too much power, and they abused it terribly. -- David Bowen speak

Yes, everything is affected by the limiting resources. -- Joanne Lewan

Yes...on a technicality -- Sean Cumming

Remember when we were kids and in the winter we would stick out tongues out and eat snow flakes. Try that now, you might wake up with lock-jaw -- Laura Miller

Especially with all of these dissasters that are happening around the world -- Laura Miller

Maybe this is where Toffler's sea cities come in to play. -- Erich Friebel

I'm eating dinner as we speak -- Jennifer Levine

Did anyone see the m ovie "Waterworld". I thought that was pretty far fetched that you can urinate in a cup and pour it through a machine to clean it and be able to drink it. -- Joanne Lewan

seriously- anyone read Animal Farm? -- Ryan Partington

yet the US has a food surplus -- Ryan Partington

That was stalinism not socialism -- Erich Friebel

But the change was ineviatble. -- David Bowen speak

inevitable. -- David Bowen speak

Everyone needs to move closer to the ocean -- Erich Friebel

Well, that is a problem. -- David Bowen speak

That is dangerous. -- David Bowen speak

All of those people killed by the Tsuanmi? -- David Bowen speak

They weren't there a couple of decades ago. -- David Bowen speak

They knew it was dangerous -- David Bowen speak

But population pressures made people settle there. -- David Bowen speak

plus California is supposed to fall off into the ocean eventually too -- Jennifer Levine

honestly dr B you think the tsunami was the result of changed in the Human Footprint? -- Ryan Partington

Yes - that's it. -- David Bowen speak

Natural selection? "The Tsunami" -- Sean Cumming

No - too many people, not enough places to live. -- David Bowen speak

We are occupying the whole globe, much more than 50% there -- David Bowen speak

Look at the Giant Sink Hole. How many more is there the second one has been spoted in another state. I don't remember the state. -- Angela Ireland

Closer to the Ocean... for what so we can be swept away in a typhoon? -- Laura Miller

It was open land. -- David Bowen speak

um- as far as i can see i dont think the human footprint is big enough yet to shift tectonic plates along a fault line -- Ryan Partington

No, but it means we live in more dangerous placce4s. They weren't there before the large population pressures. -- David Bowen speak

Marx and Engels believe that true socialism will only be possible once capitalistic democracy in some form has been spread througout the world. Once this happens the markets will be totally exploited and used up just like the resources. This will force people of all economic levels to try to cooperate -- Erich Friebel

The middle class - they didn't see that coming. -- David Bowen speak

Maybe that is why a human can go 40 days (or so) without food...but only a few days without water? -- Sean Cumming

stalinism evolved out of the combination of socialism and human greed -- Ryan Partington

And self itnerest, which socialism does not banish. -- David Bowen speak

The idea of the Third Wave is part of this social shift moving us into socialism as a human family -- Erich Friebel

No - a shift to autonomy. -- David Bowen speak

Knowledge is the key to survival. We need to learn from what has happened in the past and prevent future problems. -- Joanne Lewan

Ok, human footprint -- David Bowen speak

Energy in general is also getting short. -- David Bowen speak

50% more people coming, but that is not the REAL problem -- David Bowen speak

The real problem isss. -- David Bowen speak

That the whole world is trying to live our lifestyle -- David Bowen speak

And succeeding -- David Bowen speak

Dr B what did you mean when you said the tsunamis werent happening before and now the world is more dangerous? i am confused -- Ryan Partington

Tsunamis happend before, but people didn;'t live there -- David Bowen speak

yet our lifestyle also angers a great part of the world -- Jennifer Levine

Okay back to the human footprint, are we talking about bigfoot? -- Laura Miller

Socialism does not own individuals -- Erich Friebel

We are moving to new locations to live....settling in more dangerous places.... -- Sean Cumming

Yes - we think of this as desirable, expensive land -- David Bowen speak

But in the third world, it is cheap or free. Because it is dangerous -- David Bowen speak

I dont think the afghanis were trying to live our lifestyle, and in fact now that Iraq has had its elections and they elected a hardliner shiite guy, im not too sure that the whole world is trying or succeeding in living our lifestyle -- Ryan Partington

everyone want to be prosperous -- David Bowen speak

They may not know how to do it. I don't think we really understand it either, but that is what people want. -- David Bowen speak

You live in the country that people will die to get to. -- David Bowen speak

Just to be able to make a living by working hard. -- David Bowen speak

Keeping up with the Jones -- Sean Cumming

of course that depends on whether or not you believe the rhetoric that these nations were yearning for democracy -- Ryan Partington

Not democracy, necessarily, but the chance to make it by your own effort. -- David Bowen speak

That is what the american dream really is -- David Bowen speak

Try, and you can succeeed -- David Bowen speak

Look 0- they stay in the class they were born into. -- David Bowen speak

We can change lour economic class. -- David Bowen speak

It's hard for a nation to make it on it's own effort when their are foreign troops stationed in it. -- Erich Friebel

No argument -- David Bowen speak

Why is there such a time delay between responses? -- Joanne Lewan

Because I am in control!!! -- David Bowen speak

The US is a very rich place, and to the underdeveloped countries, it seems unfair to them that we live so wealthy -- Laura Miller

Yes, absolutely. -- David Bowen speak

Democracy or not...they want to have "stuff" like the Americans -- Sean Cumming

Yes -- David Bowen speak

So you mean more people will come to want to own the US -- Joanne Lewan

No - they want the chance to make it by their own efforts. -- David Bowen speak

We may not (do not) have it perfect that way -- David Bowen speak

But it is a lot more possible here than in an Industrial or Agricultural society -- David Bowen speak

Joanne, to be honest with you that is one of the main reasons for these wars -- Laura Miller

Someone is dying to say somethgin about slavery aren't they? -- Sean Cumming

right on -- Ryan Partington

we assume everyone wants to be like us -- Jennifer Levine

They say it, if you listen -- David Bowen speak

ok i agree with that- everyone wants prosperity etc- but our lifestyle and values, maybe not -- Ryan Partington

OK - but to make a good life for yourself by your own efforts - that people want. -- David Bowen speak

they hate us for our freedom. -- Erich Friebel

Some do, but they still want not to starve, and they want stuff lie ours. -- David Bowen speak

like -- David Bowen speak

oh give me break- that is straight out oif the mouth of george w -- Ryan Partington

Which one? -- David Bowen speak

I'am a first generation American and my father said we should kiss the ground we stand on. -- Shirley Miller

It's just jelousy -- Sean Cumming

No, they are actuallly doing it. -- David Bowen speak

like phat rides and fur coats? -- Erich Friebel

They want the ability to choose. -- David Bowen speak

Like we have. -- David Bowen speak

they hate us because we hoard wealth, ip[ose our will on foreign countries, bomb the living crap out of countries for economic gain -- Ryan Partington

We don't hoard.We don't know how our prosperity happens, so we can;t help them. We think we know, but we don't -- David Bowen speak

Individuals as well as compnaies are looking out for their own survival in a world of commerence and politics. -- Angela Ireland

I agree, we have the freedom that most countries do not. -- Laura Miller

Isn't that why we're sending McDonald's and Coke to the middle east. So they can choose? -- Erich Friebel

I think that the attitude that we are the place everyone wants to be, is the attitude that lead us to believe we were invicible and 9/11 showed us that we are not -- Jennifer Levine

Sure...but the part about them being upset at our success is just in jelousy. Human nature creates the desire to have more....even when you have everything. -- Sean Cumming

Sean, we were not on that topic, perhaps you have something to say -- Laura Miller

I agree Ryan. -- Andrea Harp

yes, but we are also hated -- Jennifer Levine

Yes, for trying to impse our views -- David Bowen speak

ok- but it is undeniable that america is pretty fueled by greed -- Ryan Partington

if there was no oil in Iraq, would we be there today? -- Ryan Partington

I think our freedom is diminishing... -- Jennifer Levine

Or die to destroy! -- Erich Friebel

Real Estate is Big Business and turns over quite a fortune. -- Shirley Miller

More people will be coming up to our level of living and the population will continue to grow causing more difficulties with energy. -- Joanne Lewan

Yes -- David Bowen speak

If you look at all of the censorshiip lately -- Jennifer Levine

Like the thousand of people flocking to the Southwestern US. Don't they realize water needs to get to them. -- Erich Friebel

RIP freedom- ever since the USA patriot act -- Ryan Partington

We are still relatively free - I detest the Patriot Act, but we are still freer than most people around the world. -- David Bowen speak

We have to stay vigilant, no argument. -- David Bowen speak

Erich - El Paso -- Sean Cumming

There is Oil in the US, so what is the wars really about??? -- Laura Miller

We don't have enough of our own oil -- David Bowen speak

yes- but we lose ALL freedom when the government can step in and decide how free we should be -- Ryan Partington

We are still freer than most countries - less than before, true -- David Bowen speak

Too bad that some of the people in other countries can't see that all Americans really don't have it so good. While bad here is generaly far better than most poorer countries, they would probably be surprised at how bad some people really have it in the richest country in the world. -- Andrea Harp

Compared to them, we have it better. -- David Bowen speak

Certainly on the average we do. -- David Bowen speak

Thousands of people drop dead in the steets inIndai every day. -- David Bowen speak

Starving -- David Bowen speak

not if you are an arab american held for two years on false charges with no legal recourse -- Ryan Partington

No contest -- Sean Cumming

The war is about oil, can we have it all? -- Angela Ireland

The human footprint! -- David Bowen speak

not if you are an interned Japanese american during WWII -- Ryan Partington

If every nation had the amount of wealth that we do, which is not possible. The world would be overwhelmed with Reality TV shows -- Erich Friebel

not nearly as much as in the gulf states -- Ryan Partington

Sorry Laura...think my comment got submitted out of turn. -- Sean Cumming

its just like Animal Farm- we are all free but some are more free than others -- Ryan Partington

The war is about hoarding resources. Energy and economic. -- Erich Friebel

the war is not all about oil, it's a lot of other politics, wanting to control other countries... -- Jennifer Levine

Living where there are known earthquakes...hurricanes...etc. -- Sean Cumming

JUST KIDDING! -- Laura Miller

Energy as we've harnessed it... -- Sean Cumming

So the biggest problem with the human footprint is that the rest of the world IS CATCHING UP TO US! -- David Bowen speak

China -- David Bowen speak

India -- David Bowen speak

If Democracy and capitalism thrive in the middle east imagine the market that can be exploited. -- Erich Friebel

Yup -- David Bowen speak

Luxembourg -- Erich Friebel

Japan! -- Jennifer Levine

People are a country's resource. -- Shirley Miller

If the rest of the world catches up, the human footprint grows to about 500% -- David Bowen speak

The Vatican -- Erich Friebel

yup- as i said ealier- we establish strategic control in the middle east- then we can make money off of the third world while they are still dependent on oil and we move on to hydrogen fuel -- Ryan Partington

Population growth adds 50% to that. -- David Bowen speak

And we may have overshot - I like a factor of two for safety. -- David Bowen speak

exactly Dr B i think its in our 'interests' to keep the third world third worl -- Ryan Partington

We are not trying to do that, we are trying to help them grow. -- David Bowen speak

We loan them money, we set trade agreements -- David Bowen speak

So you think we would move on to Hydrogen or another type of fuel once the rest of the world is dependent on Petroleum? -- Erich Friebel

People can be a country's resource if they can utilize them properly. -- Joanne Lewan

The human footprint means, I think, that our present lifestyle cannot continue. -- David Bowen speak

yes but as long as they dont grow 'too muych' and as long as the US is the one profiting from the growth -- Ryan Partington

yeah, we are helping them grow and going into debt of our own in the process -- Jennifer Levine

Cannot contineu... -- David Bowen speak

continue -- David Bowen speak

My guess is that the human footprint now covers about 50% of the earth -- David Bowen speak

We might possible double it -- David Bowen speak

But it cannot increase by a factor of fifteen -- David Bowen speak

America is always helping, and going into debt in the process -- Laura Miller

Yup - our success is going to drive us all to ruin- that part is coming up -- David Bowen speak

I think China and Japan have the right idea. By buying up our debt they are going to control the world economy in a few decades. -- Erich Friebel

why don't we concentrate on our own society for a change? -- Jennifer Levine

We benefit when they do - that is why -- David Bowen speak

I guess that is supposed to be our image , to help our fellow man, but what about when we need help. When we are fighting a war to help another country that does not want us over there. -- Laura Miller

Isn't it true thought that the Middle East is still more Agricultural and that because they treat their women lowly they will continue to be a problem? -- Joanne Lewan

I think so -- David Bowen speak

it is a world society -- Erich Friebel

i think that, yes. The biggest investors in hydrogen fuel technology are the oil moguls -- Ryan Partington

Petroleum is used for more than just energy. The computer you're using is composed of petroleum products. -- Erich Friebel

The human footprint - not any particular details o0f it - that is where I am going here -- David Bowen speak

We benefit when China and Japan control the world economy? -- Erich Friebel

So far. -- David Bowen speak

But the human footprint. -- David Bowen speak

Here is the problem that I see... -- David Bowen speak

If we control 100% of the world, we don;t know enough to do it without ruinging the world system -- David Bowen speak

How do you figure that Erich? -- Laura Miller

We only have 20 minutes left... -- Joanne Lewan

yes- imagine though that we didnt need it at all for autos- it would majorly affect demand -- Ryan Partington

how so? -- Erich Friebel

We depend upon the natural world in critical ways -- David Bowen speak

Ecosystem services -- David Bowen speak

Pg 6 -- David Bowen speak

We depend upon th4 nautrla world for soil fertility, for example. -- David Bowen speak

We do not know how to keep soild fertile so food can grow, on our own -- David Bowen speak

Microbes, worms, water, wind - they have to do it for us -- David Bowen speak

Yes, we need to manage our natural systems. There is a lot we depend on to survive and we need to protect it from destroying humankind. -- Joanne Lewan

WE DON"T KNOW ENOUGH TO DO THIS!!! -- David Bowen speak

millions of people wouldnt need petroleum to fuel their cars -- Ryan Partington

The point about the human footprint is that we don;t know enough to take care of the natural systems -- David Bowen speak

yes, and as worms, microbes etc have less nutrients to work with this presents a problem- we are recycling nutrients arent we? -- Ryan Partington

They are - we don't know how. -- David Bowen speak

Also, another ecosystem service is cleanign the water and air -- David Bowen speak

Natural systems do that for uys -- David Bowen speak

Parts we can manage, but not the whole thing. -- David Bowen speak

Regulate disease carrying organisms -- David Bowen speak

We can do some, but only a small part. -- David Bowen speak

I think we do know alot more than we think. Didn't the US agriculture department help Russian to grow their own food and utilize their land better? -- Joanne Lewan

We know a lot less. -- David Bowen speak

Trust me. -- David Bowen speak

We think we can control things, but we can't -- David Bowen speak

Ask the scientists -- David Bowen speak

We can't even name most of the species in the workld - most of the microbes in the soil, air and water -- David Bowen speak

Let alone understand what they do, and h9w they interact -- David Bowen speak

Gene Rodenberry was a prophet. -- Erich Friebel

Star Trek is the Third Wave. -- Erich Friebel

I agree Joanne, we have the knowhow to grow our own produces -- Laura Miller

NO!!! -- David Bowen speak

We can supply some things, but we cannot make fertile soil -- David Bowen speak

Who knows, we may be creating new organisms by the way we live and not even realize it. -- Joanne Lewan

We donl;t know as much as we think we do. -- David Bowen speak

no to who? -- Erich Friebel

So what's the hold up? -- Joanne Lewan

It seems as though the Agricultural societies of the Native Americans (others I'm sure) could teach us a lot about sustaining ecosystems. -- Erich Friebel

We need to grow much more food than they could -- David Bowen speak

We have not much more famrable (arable) land left -- David Bowen speak

So we have to grow more on the same land -- David Bowen speak

Also, as people get prosperous, they swithc to meat. -- David Bowen speak

One pound of meat takes ten pounds of crops -- David Bowen speak

So we will need to grow one heck of a lot more food -- David Bowen speak

We don't know how, now. -- David Bowen speak

The wholistic and organic approach has a lot ot offer. I go to a chiropractor and buy mostly organic food. And I feel a lot better than in recent years. -- Erich Friebel

We will need to grow about TEN TIMES MORE if people in the third world switch from veggies to meat -- David Bowen speak

Don't the animals (dead and natural waste) provide fertilizer as well? Kind of a cycle? -- Sean Cumming

Yes, a cycle. But it takes ten pound of veggies to make a pound of meat. -- David Bowen speak

Dead animals pollute. -- Erich Friebel

One pound of meat also does a number on your arteries. -- Erich Friebel

But that is waht people want. We will need to eat more veggies and less meat, true -- David Bowen speak

Why did we lose so much farmland in the first place? It was too costly for the farmers to maintain, they are having smaller families and so they had to sell their land. -- Joanne Lewan

To development - we are moving to the exurbs, collectively -- David Bowen speak

If the third world became prosperous enough to switch to meat, wouldnt that entail that they have prospered agriculturally enough to sustain the demand in the first place? -- Ryan Partington

As a world, we have to figure out how to grow much more food on the same land, than we are doing now -- David Bowen speak

Currently we are building and not growing our food resource. -- Angela Ireland

Yes, in the US -- David Bowen speak

Brazil is the only country that can markedly increase its farm acreage. -- David Bowen speak

A handful of grains has more protein than a large steak -- Erich Friebel

We evolved to eat at least some meat -- David Bowen speak

The irght mix of proteins is very important to us -- David Bowen speak

are there any foods that we are dependent on imports from? -- Ryan Partington

With cattle needing grains for feed we add to the problems of farming and eventually to sustaining the cattle. -- Andrea Harp

Why did American farmers get pushed out of business? -- Shirley Miller

Suburbs make so much more money than farms. The taxes kill them -- David Bowen speak

My Grand mother grew her own Cherry trees right here in Detroit, and I mean the nice Black Cherries that you buy at the grocery store, and she would harvest them for the Fall and Winter seasons -- Laura Miller

I have a friend who works for Scotts...the fertililzer people. -- Sean Cumming

have you noticed though how things always seem to balance themselves out- take for example antibacterial soap and antibiotics, etc. as we find ways to prevent becoming sick- the strains of disease mutate and become resistant to the antibiotics and our immune systems become weakened- and we get sick all over again- i guess what iam getting at is that things balance themselves out in the ecosphere -- Ryan Partington

But things are changing -- David Bowen speak

The rest of the world really is beocming more propserous -- David Bowen speak

They ARE DOING IT!!! -- David Bowen speak

We should be happy for them -- David Bowen speak

But don't we grow more food than is consumed. I've read that farmers are paid to destroy some of their harvest in order to not mess up the supply and demand thing. -- Erich Friebel

like cloning food- how many times can you clone something before it has no nutritional value -- Ryan Partington

We still need soil to grow things in, and we are running out, and we will need a lot more food. -- David Bowen speak

Yea third world. -- Erich Friebel

Good news and bad news -- David Bowen speak

hey.... i said that a while ago- its like quoting me out of context- hehe -- Ryan Partington

So, are we doomed? -- David Bowen speak

I think not -- David Bowen speak

I don't think we will accept a lower lifestyle, not voluntarily, and who is going to force us? -- David Bowen speak

Like the Pharohs. -- Erich Friebel

Doomed!!!!! -- Erich Friebel

Nope, I don't believe that -- David Bowen speak

Fundamental change, yes -- David Bowen speak

we are when Dr BOWEN has all the POWER hahaha -- Ryan Partington

NO -- Shirley Miller

if you clone something isn't it exactly the same? -- Erich Friebel

But younger -- David Bowen speak

It' environment is different, so it is not the same -- David Bowen speak

Genetics is not destiny, especially for people -- David Bowen speak

And it is owned. -- Erich Friebel

OK, so here is what I hop will happen -- David Bowen speak

I think that if everyone does their part to live a modest lifestyle and not waste food and energy we will all be better for it. -- Joanne Lewan

yeah but theres an intangible aspect to life that has yet to be understood- you can take vitamin supplements but are they a substitiute for the minerals obtained from real food? -- Ryan Partington

You Hop? -- Erich Friebel

No the vitamins on the market today. They are enhancers not replacements for nutrients needed for our bodies. -- Joanne Lewan

I think we will lead a more vitual lifestyle, that will come to appeal to us even more, and that will use fewer material resources -- David Bowen speak

does anyone hear me on that? i mean you can clone a carrot only so many times, but how many times before it becomes devoid of anything of nutritional value? -- Ryan Partington

No change - it doesn't wear out, aass far as we can tell now. -- David Bowen speak

Supplements are not always good. It depends on what form they take. Sometimes the body does not accept minerals and vitamins in a processed form. The long list just looks good to consumers on the back of the bottle. -- Erich Friebel

We stil need to eat our spinach Ryan. -- Joanne Lewan

So a more virtual lifestyle will use fewer resources, at least that is the way out that I see. -- David Bowen speak

We are all getting wired up -- David Bowen speak

I love spinach -- Laura Miller

Asparagus is good too. -- Erich Friebel

Yuck! -- David Bowen speak

what do you mean by virtual lifestyle dr B? joanne- hahahaha -- Ryan Partington

Instead of actuallytravelling to Tahiti, we do it electronically -- David Bowen speak

I like the idea of a virtual lifestyle when it comes to work and shopping. But the whole virtual vacation thing sucks. -- Erich Friebel

well everyone have a great weekend and a wonderful spring break -- Laura Miller

you mean we become all frail and atrophied like the Greys from the X-Files? -- Ryan Partington

No, I think we will learn a lot more about health -- David Bowen speak

count me out- the women in tahiti are better in person -- Ryan Partington

That may be a problem -- David Bowen speak

What about the ones here? -- David Bowen speak

Not if you eat your spinach Ryan! -- Andrea Harp

So many things will force change, beinging with out past, and leading to future events. -- Angela Ireland

hahaha -- Ryan Partington

I think that if everyone is more contious of helping to nurture the earth instead of continuing to take from it, we will come up withsoem plane to help our earth help us. to -- Laura Miller

The problem with our present lifestyle, I think will be VERY large. -- David Bowen speak

OK, finishing up here. -- David Bowen speak

Got through the agenda -- David Bowen speak

I had fun! -- David Bowen speak

the ones here will be in an adjacent cubicle, attached to their modems and being fed through a tube, is waht i am guessing by virtual life- just liike the MAtrix -- Ryan Partington

Was this a lively calss? I was cetrtainly busy! -- David Bowen speak

good times everyone! Have a great spring break! -- Jennifer Levine

I had fun too. Thanks Dr. B. Bye everyone see you next class.... -- Joanne Lewan

this class rocked ass! -- Ryan Partington

Hmmm -- David Bowen speak

Have a nice Spring Brake! It was interesting. -- Angela Ireland

Break -- David Bowen speak

It was a great experience. -- Andrea Harp

There is a writing guide at www.is.waynbe.edu/olgt -- David Bowen speak

Ryan just had to swear.... -- Joanne Lewan

but everyone else, have fun -- Ryan Partington

Yes Spring Break. -- Angela Ireland

Enjoyed the experience Dr. Bowen. -- Shirley Miller

break for me means reading and posting -- Ryan Partington

Yup -- David Bowen speak

Me too -- David Bowen speak

aaaaaw it wasnt swearing its an expression come on now! -- Ryan Partington

I would like to do this again. I should go. My pregnant wife is getting hungry. As am I. We have lamazz class in the morning. -- Erich Friebel

OK, bye everyone -- David Bowen speak

I will put this thing on auto in case anyone else wants to continue -- David Bowen speak

g'night -- Jennifer Levine

bye! -- Ryan Partington

Now you are on auto - what you post goes straight in! -- David Bowen speak

Watch for the transcript -- David Bowen speak

By everyone have a great week. -- Shirley Miller

Still there, Sean? -- David Bowen speak