Transcript of class unchat session Monday April 17, 6 - 8 PM

Attendance:

• Kathy Asselin
• Bernard Chevalier
• Janus Landrum
• Ana Ross
• Azure Robertson
• Jack Beall
• Melissa Merkau
• Tiffany Russell
• Gianna Bacher 
• Tina Wilburn 

testing, testing, testing. 1, 2, 3. April 17, here we go. -- David Bowen

Hi, Kathy. -- David Bowen

hello am i early? -- Kathleen Asselin 

I have 5:53 -- David Bowen

I think I have e=everything of yours graded, exept for Essay 3 -- David Bowen

hello I have been working on my last essay and I think it may be done...just putting on the finishing touches. -- Kathleen Asselin 

OK -- David Bowen

What is it on? -- David Bowen

I have all my grades...thanks for the feedback -- Kathleen Asselin 

Well, you really write well. -- David Bowen

You leave me very little to say! -- David Bowen

What are you thinking of doing with your Master's? -- David Bowen

my essay is on Gardner;s emerging themes...i think they constitute Gardners creativity since he discovered them during the course of his study....thanks for the compliment! -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes. It is an interesting question - can a creativity researcher be creative? -- David Bowen

everyone asks me what i am doing with my masters degree.,. i find that a hard question..l hope to be educated...maybe i'll write...maybe i''ll retire with my husband and lie on a beach and drink -- Kathleen Asselin 

Ah! -- David Bowen

That's what I like about the Florida keys - the image of just chucking it all. -- David Bowen

good question can a creativity researcher be creative....sometimes i think -- Kathleen Asselin 

Obviously Gardner and Csik think Creativity is great. -- David Bowen

Hello Group! -- Janus Landrum 

And Ana -- David Bowen

i prefer hawaii or greece or maybe some where even more exotic -- Kathleen Asselin 

hi janus & ana -- Kathleen Asselin 

And Azure - hi there -- David Bowen

All chicks so far> Oops I'd better not say that. -- David Bowen

hey melissa & azure -- Kathleen Asselin 

hello! -- Azure Robertson 

I think they must be creative to learn how other have done it:) -- Ana Ross 

Melissa - everyone knows you are pregnant, right? How is it going? -- David Bowen

to david's chick reference: PEEP PEEP -- Kathleen Asselin 

Congratulations Mellissa -- Kathleen Asselin 

I didn't blow your secret, Melissa, did I? -- David Bowen

hi everyone.... -- Melissa Merkau 

Hello to everyone -- Bernard Chevalier 

Hi, Bernard. -- David Bowen

hi david.... -- Melissa Merkau 

OK, I have to brag too, my daughter had a baby girl Saturday afternoon. My first grandbaby, I have step grandbabies, but this is mine. -- Janus Landrum 

Hi Bernard! -- Janus Landrum 

do you think the baby is absorbing some of this creativity stuff?:) -- Azure Robertson 

you have definitely not received all of my emails.....because one of them let you know that i lost the baby.... -- Melissa Merkau 

Oh no, Melissa. I'm so sorry to hear this. -- David Bowen

but it was very early on......and karl and i are okay with it....it was God's will.... -- Melissa Merkau 

SO SORRY MELLISA:-( -- Kathleen Asselin 

Sorry -- Azure Robertson 

thanks everyone......if we are meant to have a child.....we will...... -- Melissa Merkau 

Sorry to hear about that -- Ana Ross 

Sorry to hear that Melissa, but you can try again. -- Janus Landrum 

Hello Janus and congratulation to you -- Bernard Chevalier 

And there is Gianna. -- David Bowen

we weren't even trying.....it just happened.....but enough about me..... -- Melissa Merkau 

Thanks, unfortunately she lives up north, so I can't see her as often as I would like to. -- Janus Landrum 

Janus - we webcam to New Jersey regularly. -- David Bowen

Hi Kathy -- Gianna Bacher 

The webcams are like $50 each and the time is free. -- David Bowen

did everyone have a wonderful Easter????? -- Melissa Merkau 

Yes, I guess my daughter and I both need to get updated! I might try that. -- Janus Landrum 

OK, ready to go? -- David Bowen

Yes -- Janus Landrum 

yes! -- Melissa Merkau 

ready -- Azure Robertson 

-yep -- Gianna Bacher 

Great easter for me -- Bernard Chevalier 

Very nice holiday -- Janus Landrum 

Lets roll -- Kathleen Asselin 

OK, number 1, Gardner's people created the basis for our modern society. -- David Bowen

OK -- Bernard Chevalier 

Freud taught us that there is an unconscious. -- David Bowen

Eliot taught us to pull our leaders down a notch, look at them as just folks. -- David Bowen

I definately agree with you Dr. Bowen. I don't think I ever heard of any of Csik's -- Azure Robertson 

Did I tell you about the Duke of Windsor? -- David Bowen

no -- Melissa Merkau 

No -- Janus Landrum 

dont think so -- Azure Robertson 

Well, he and this American lady - I forget her name - had a pretty open affair. -- David Bowen

This was just about WW 1. -- David Bowen

Thre press didn't report anything until they were married 18 months later. -- David Bowen

Gentlemen didn't behave that way. -- David Bowen

(Mrs. Wallace Simpson) -- Tiffany Russell 

Right. -- David Bowen

It was frowned upon right? -- Ana Ross 

Well, it was apparently well known among the London elites. -- David Bowen

she was twice divorced I believe -- Tiffany Russell 

I'm not sure what the Duke of Windsor & Camille (i think thats her name) have to do with creativity -- Kathleen Asselin 

sorry wrong duke -- Kathleen Asselin 

what was frowned upon? -- Melissa Merkau 

No - everyone had affairs, apparently, but the press didn't report it. -- David Bowen

He was in line for the thrown -- Ana Ross 

He gave up the throne to marry her - a great romantic story -- David Bowen

But would the press hold off on a story like that today? -- David Bowen

i am all for romantic stories! -- Melissa Merkau 

I believe that being with a divorced woman and having an affair was frowned upon in the U.S., but wasn't the Europeans a little looser? -- Janus Landrum 

No Way -- Azure Robertson 

the press would have a field day today! -- Melissa Merkau 

keeping their affair was creative...but the media was different during WWII -- Kathleen Asselin 

Well, Eliot helped make that difference. -- David Bowen

No, the press would make a huge deal out of it. Look at Prince Charles. -- Janus Landrum 

except for the fact that they were thought to be nazi sympathizers I believe... -- Tiffany Russell 

Ah...I get it -- Azure Robertson 

Our leaders to day are just poeople, not revered -- David Bowen

how did Eliot make the difference..... -- Melissa Merkau 

Or revered in a different way?? -- Azure Robertson 

Who do we revere among the leadership today? -- David Bowen

In a way some of them brought that on themselves. -- Janus Landrum 

No - it is a different time. -- David Bowen

Interesting about eliot...the media really goes after people now...during my cold war class Frank pointed out that few people knew that Roosevelt was in a wheel chair or Kennedy had affairs -- Kathleen Asselin 

WW2 was a slaughter, with very little to show for it. -- David Bowen

"leaders" aren't revered as much as the common folk, such as actors, musicians, etc. for some reason now adays -- Tiffany Russell 

i am not sure.....i have definitely changed my mind about some of our current leadership and the way that they have conducted themselves... -- Melissa Merkau 

In the U.S I am not sure who we revere. I think the Queen is revered in England -- Janus Landrum 

No - the Quees is revered in the US! -- David Bowen

Queen -- David Bowen

I think maybe it is different for everyone. For me-the cheif of my tribe , angelina jolie -- Azure Robertson 

That is true - I do agree with that! -- Janus Landrum 

she is? -- Tiffany Russell 

political leaders are not revered today and it has a lot to do with our postmodern thinking...as well as our media being so blood thirsty for sensationalism -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes - the leaders failed, according to Eliot's views, and they could not be allowed to create carnage that way and get away with it. -- David Bowen

yes kathleen, I agree. They make them seem too common to really look up to them -- Tiffany Russell 

maybe because politicians are so scandalous? -- Melissa Merkau 

The Duke of Windsor was scandalous then. -- David Bowen

It is a shame if someone thinks that actors and muscians should be revered. -- Janus Landrum 

We are talking about the political leaders here. -- David Bowen

I think in his day it was scandalous -- Janus Landrum 

hey, i just got here! Hope all is going well. sorry i'm late -- Jack Beall shout

i dont think of angelina that way because of her acting career-its because of her humanitarianism and her work with third world countries and children -- Azure Robertson 

But we still know who is dating whom, right? -- David Bowen

And we comment on their figures and their scandals -- David Bowen

Everything seems to be fair game now -- David Bowen

but is jolie considered a political leader -- Kathleen Asselin 

so. it will change. but her work is still there -- Azure Robertson 

-on question #1, I believe many of the creatives mentioned are contemporaries to the seven great minds discussed by Gardner, these individuals "dwarf" many of tthecreative types mentioned in Creativity by Csik, only because of their truly unsurpassable contributions, the thinking that they introduced just didn't exist. Thye certainly contributed to the big C and therefore there contemporaries are there to perpetuate and build on this Eliot changed society by challenging them to question authority. To not put these individuals on some platform above the spheres they were brought up. At the end of the day, these folks put there pants on one leg at a time just like you and me. -- Gianna Bacher 

dr. bowen, do you think that leaders are less so revered in our current society than in previous generations? -- Tiffany Russell 

Absolutely. -- David Bowen

Ok Bradgelina, a topic i can really get into....! -- Jack Beall 

All right. Now to Einstein. -- David Bowen

For sure, they are almost like a joke to many now. -- Janus Landrum 

I told you I would ask you about the Big Bang. As the universe expands, what is outside the universe? -- David Bowen

and do you think that this vurrent view is due to the expansion of media? -- Tiffany Russell 

-the reason why leaders are less revered is because we have to question, are they truly exempliary of a leader? --or just someone w/a penchant for rhetoric? -- Gianna Bacher 

OK, about the Big Bang. Any guesses about what is outside? -- David Bowen

Come on, come on -- David Bowen

Giana, i think your point about big c & little c is worth mentioning....are our political leaders creative at all? In a big c or little c way? -- Kathleen Asselin 

Big Bang? -- David Bowen

outside the universe...more universe??just waiting to be perfectly aligned into something new?? -- Azure Robertson 

I believe in the idea of intelligent design...if the Big Bang did occur, then it was God's doing -- Jack Beall 

But what is outside the universe, as it expands? -- David Bowen

that's a matter of opinion -- Azure Robertson 

What is a matter of opinion? -- David Bowen

atoms came together and created a big bang (universe) but the universe is collapsing now (aka scientists at NASA) -- Melissa Merkau 

hard to say what lies outside our current understanding, not understandable within our minds yet -- Tiffany Russell 

god's design -- Azure Robertson 

another universe? -- Jack Beall 

Other planets with other people. -- Janus Landrum 

is infinity outside the universe? -- Kathleen Asselin 

of course it is an opinion, and i gave it -- Jack Beall shout

There is nothing outside the universe. The universe creates space as it expands. -- David Bowen

The sun is getting hotter and bigger. -- Janus Landrum 

God and heaven are outside of the universe -- Melissa Merkau 

Did everyone get what I said? That's Einstein! -- David Bowen

Revolutionary enough for you? -- David Bowen

how do they prove that nothing is outside the universe? -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes -- Janus Landrum 

I think that every universe is like a cell within the "body" of God -- Tiffany Russell 

sure -- Azure Robertson 

a bit too intense for me...kinda like if c..a..t spelled dog -- Jack Beall 

Space being created. -- David Bowen

That's Einstein. -- David Bowen

Gandhi, no -- David Bowen

Gandhi, now -- David Bowen

Sorry about that -- David Bowen

Who is creating the space? -- Kathleen Asselin 

The universe is creating the space. -- David Bowen

I agree with you Tiffany -- Bernard Chevalier 

Well, this is general relativity. It is a fundamental truth about the universe. -- David Bowen

isn't it creating a void? -- Melissa Merkau 

No, there is simply nothing outside the universe. "There" is being created by the universe as it expands. -- David Bowen

Now, Gandhi. -- David Bowen

Ghandi was a political and ideologic innoventor -- Janus Landrum 

Yes. Today, we usually assume that the protesters are morally right. -- David Bowen

Einstein certainly laid the groundwork for more contemporaries scientists, to grapple this theory. It allowed them to dare to think of the possbilities. . I agree w/what Tiffany suggests, granted so much has been introduced in Physics it is so absolutely bizarre and abstract it is hard to put a finger on it. Things lik quarks and the most recent "string theory". The though that parallel universes do exist is absolutely amazing. -- Gianna Bacher 

No, no, this is science. It is still the most current truth. -- David Bowen

I meant innovator -- Janus Landrum 

Ghandi's model of nonviolent protest is a wonderful model to emulate -- Kathleen Asselin 

Ghandi practiced what he preached so to speak -- Janus Landrum 

Gandhi really changed the way that people confront others...making your voice heard with nonviolent methods -- Tiffany Russell 

Gandhi was an unbelievable human being....his methods of non-violent protest were so forward-thinking, it can only speak of his true genius. He put the British in an impossible compromising position, which ultimately made them look foolish and imperialistic, thus forcing the issues Gandhi was fighting for to become of concern on a global level. -- Jack Beall 

And most of us assume, at least at first, that the protesters must have something right. -- David Bowen

I think Gandhi did that. -- David Bowen

All right, so these people created a lot of the way we think. -- David Bowen

That's creativity with a BIG BIG BIG C -- David Bowen

Yes -- Janus Landrum 

the funny part about it was that Gandhi was not in it for the publicity or the fame and fortune.....he was trying to change the government for the people! -- Melissa Merkau 

Is there a middle C ? -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes it's right above middle B on the scale :-> -- David Bowen

their ideas have definately had effect on us whether we liked it or not -- Azure Robertson 

good question Kathy -- Melissa Merkau 

yes, they were products of the old way of thinking coming to an end and combusting in what they did. they redefined current existance in a sense -- Tiffany Russell 

which makes him remarkable....he was able to motivate his followers on a huge scale, that takes great leadership as well as creative thinking -- Jack Beall 

Right, and that is unusual today. I don't know if he could have that response today -- Janus Landrum 

But we still think taht way - the protesters are right. -- David Bowen

It seems that the BigC creators were Gardners people and Middle C would be Csik. people ... how about us little folks trying to be creative in our lives...they are little c's -- Kathleen Asselin 

OK, that's #2 on the agenda. -- David Bowen

Gardner said that his folks started in childhood - all of them. -- David Bowen

But I didn't start in childhood. -- David Bowen

Am I out of luck? -- David Bowen

Yes, at different levels -- Janus Landrum 

I think the conclusion is - it takes time to become creative in a field. -- David Bowen

you started something.....you just might not have known what it was! -- Jack Beall 

how did you not start in childhood? -- Azure Robertson 

I wasn't really interested in teaching, for instance. -- David Bowen

I was interested in cars and electric trains. -- David Bowen

And math. -- David Bowen

But I think the lesson is - it takes time. -- David Bowen

I don't think so. many of the ideas that you have now were probably formed in some minor sense during childhood as well, though you didn't act on them until much later -- Tiffany Russell 

some of us may have had a dream since childhood but had to put it on the backburner until later years.....i believe that we can be just as creative later in years...than if we perfected the dream early on... -- Melissa Merkau 

I found the Faustian bargains interesting...like Picasso bargaining with God to cure his sister...God did not so Picasso felt he could do anything he pleased -- Kathleen Asselin 

Absolutely -- Azure Robertson 

in the infamous words of Steven Tyler.....Dream On -- Jack Beall 

Martha Graham did not start out dancing, yet when she was in her early 20's she was hooked. -- Janus Landrum 

Yes she did. -- David Bowen

I think the perfection comes slowly with time. -- Azure Robertson 

Yes - step 1 learn the field step 2 perfect your response -- David Bowen

The Faustian bargain - if you stay within your comfornt level, you are probably not yet creative -- David Bowen

Martha Graham was always interested in dance... -- Melissa Merkau 

Some childhood dreams die before they begin -- Kathleen Asselin 

what about Tiger Woods.....i believe that he reached perfection at a very early age.... -- Melissa Merkau 

Was he playing golf in childhood? -- David Bowen

I don't remember that -- David Bowen

Also the need for social support - these people were not inside their comfort levels -- David Bowen

Tiger Woods appeared on Johnny Carson when he was only 4 years old to display his already perfect golf swing. -- Jack Beall 

dance was Graham's life -- Bernard Chevalier 

They showed Tiger hitting balls when he was small, but I don't think he played professional until later. -- Janus Landrum 

Many of gardners people did not make others around them comfortable...the price you pay for talent -- Kathleen Asselin 

on mthe comfort level thing. That is where risk taking comes into play right? -- Azure Robertson 

Yes -good -- David Bowen

since he was three years old i believe -- Melissa Merkau 

She was interested in it, but when she went to that ballet, it really got her going and then she took off in dance. -- Janus Landrum 

I certainly believe the groundwork is laid out in your childhood, yet the path you take may be longer, or shorter than others in relation to mastering you craft. Sometimes the path you take is so long, you never quite reach your destination, no matter how long it takes, I believe that original foundation formulated in your early years stays with you. Kind of a corny way of trying to explain my point. sorry -- Gianna Bacher 

Gardner writes about dance in Graham's childhood - I forget who the dancers were -- David Bowen

bowen, say someone started on something earlier in life, gave it up, then returned to it many many years later. is that better than never having started it at all and having to begin it later in life , or are both positions equal in hardship. -- Tiffany Russell 

I don't know. Sometimes you really value it. -- David Bowen

I had a student once in this course who drew a really colofrul fish in art class. -- David Bowen

The teacher tore it apart. -- David Bowen

She never recovered -- David Bowen

Hi Tiffany, -- Gianna Bacher 

thats so cruel! -- Tiffany Russell 

why because it wasn't realistic? -- Janus Landrum 

I forget the details. -- David Bowen

hi Gianna! -- Tiffany Russell 

i believe that many of us want to achieve something and it is a personal choice as to whether you perfect it early on in life....or later on in life....simply because of priorities.... -- Melissa Merkau 

i can't believe a teacher would do that! -- Azure Robertson 

Well, I hope I wouldn't -- David Bowen

But dreams can be crushed -- David Bowen

I think the student gave too much control to teacher... y0u need to please yourself -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes, perhaps, but this was a grade-school child -- David Bowen

Asking an awful lot to have them stand up to an adult. -- David Bowen

yes they can. Maybe it depends how strong your drive is. -- Azure Robertson 

To me that is creativity, but maybe we don't know the whole story. -- Janus Landrum 

sometimes priorities are placed upon us without our permission or want -- Jack Beall 

I don't think it would be tolerated to stand up to a teacher in grade school today -- Janus Landrum 

some kids are motivated by critism but i believe praise is better -- Kathleen Asselin 

for twelve years i was told by nuns that i was "possessed" because i was left handed..... -- Melissa Merkau 

Ooooh. -- David Bowen

I was referring to dreams being crushed -- Azure Robertson 

Yes. -- David Bowen

they tried to get me to write right handed for years....but i would never let them change me -- Melissa Merkau 

Our son, too. Not nuns, but teachrws. -- David Bowen

Hi Tiffany I agree w/you in a way. But sometimes folks do "go back" and start again and others forget all together A good friend of mine, started in ballet at an early age, and then for years she did not study., but we would spend time at her house I would play classical pieces and she would improvise some dance moves. as we both got older and went to college we studied art but my friend never formally studied dance. In her mid to late 20's she attended the University of wash. in Seattle, she now has a BFA and is a choreographer and is very well know in the immediate Seattle area therefore it is possible to leave your interest and come backh -- Gianna Bacher 

My sister is still left handed too. -- Janus Landrum 

and what did your parents say to that? -- Ana Ross 

That's funny, my sister was told that too! -- Janus Landrum 

i don't think it would be tolerated to tear up a kid's drawing either -- Jack Beall 

I am working now with some people with disabilities. They said they are warehoused. -- David Bowen

I would bet the parent would be a little upset -- Janus Landrum 

A lot of parents are afraid of teachers. -- David Bowen

Gianna, that's what I was wondering. Would it be easier to come back to your passion, or to start fresh later in life. I'm glad she went back to it -- Tiffany Russell 

Sometimes, youdon't come back. I suggested to that woman that she redraw the fish today, but she was too discouraged. -- David Bowen

in today's society a lot of teachers are afraid of their students! -- Melissa Merkau 

Yes -- David Bowen

i believe that some teachers think they are assisting students when they seem to be cruel....in order to make a point that life is not fair....they just go about it in the wrong way -- Melissa Merkau 

The ten-year ruyle also says it takes time to be creative. -- David Bowen

Thats the thing though I don't think she every left, she was alwasy on the periphery doing things in that genre. If that makes sense -- Gianna Bacher 

do teachers have to have psychological evaluations to become certified? -- Tiffany Russell 

No. -- David Bowen

Tiffany....sometimes you have to go through a lot of "stuff" before you can concentrate on your dream....i believe that it does not make a difference whether you follow your creative dream early on...or in your later years -- Melissa Merkau 

But in this case, it did. -- David Bowen

My mother told the nuns to spank me if I needed it, but I don't think I would do that. -- Janus Landrum 

but some kids would find the courage to be angry or be motivated by the idiot teacher who tears their work up...I disagree with parents afraid of teachers...i think the teachers are afraid of some of thescary parents -- Kathleen Asselin 

i would think that the entire context of the incident would need to be explored...had the teacher already told her not to draw in class? Was it a math class and not the right avenue for doing artwork? We are only getting one side of the story... -- Jack Beall 

This was a really young child. You know how trusting they are - all in the moment. -- David Bowen

I don't htink it is so bad if your creativity does not come out until you are older. -- Janus Landrum 

Gianna, yes that makes sense. it never left her -- Tiffany Russell 

good point jack -- Kathleen Asselin 

So creativity takes some guts. Time and guts. -- David Bowen

Jack, I still don't think it was right for her to rip it up regardless -- Tiffany Russell 

Young kid did the drawing. The woman still felt the pain. -- David Bowen

Yes, sometimes time and guts -- Janus Landrum 

she could have taken the piece and held it until class was over -- Tiffany Russell 

guts and time for sure! -- Azure Robertson 

i can agree with you on that...taking it away would have been as far as i would have gone, no matter the circumstances. -- Jack Beall shout

I think that is one of the reasons that you have to love what youdo to be creative - otherwise you won't stick with it long enough. -- David Bowen

guts and patience...yes -- Melissa Merkau 

Some peoples that has heard they will never accomplish anything; never does, but others achieve to prove someone wrong -- Bernard Chevalier 

Yes, that can be a good motivation, but you also have to turn that into something positive. -- David Bowen

Yes, if you don't love it you would not take the time to perfect it or start it. -- Janus Landrum 

Yes. -- David Bowen

OK, enough of that -- David Bowen

Multiple Intelligences -- David Bowen

Jack, yousaid you see this in your classes -- David Bowen

good point bernard...my niece went to U of M just because her boyfriend said she would never get in -- Kathleen Asselin 

I would state that if a Teacher objects to what a student is doing and does something as dramatic and cruel like tearing the drawing up deserves a closer look, what was the student drawing, was this the time and the place. Of course, the teachers sole purpose was to humiliate which is never positive. I guess the point is would something like this deter someone from continuing to be creative? I don't think so, teachers are one influencing factor, I belive it would take combination of things--crappy teacher, marginal support from parents, etc... -- Gianna Bacher 

Teachers do get burned out. -- David Bowen

You know, I knew back when teachers could see ten years ahead to the day they would be laid off. -- David Bowen

No matter how good a job they did. -- David Bowen

multiple intelligences? -- Azure Robertson 

That is amazing -- Janus Landrum 

AAAH! -- Gianna Bacher 

Jack, tell us of the multiple intelligences you see. -- Janus Landrum 

I liked the theory of multiple intellegences and wonder if they can each be appreciated -- Kathleen Asselin 

Can they each be rewarded in school? -- David Bowen

What is mutiple intelligences? -- Tina Wilburn 

This is Gardner's theory that there are nine types of intelligence -- David Bowen

See the Agenda for a list. -- David Bowen

Number three on the agenda -- Janus Landrum 

It is very hard for a teacher in a class of thirty to treat everyone individually -- David Bowen

i believe that every individual has the potential to do something great - in many different avenues - and depending upon their circumstances...some of those talents blossom...while some fall by the wayside -- Melissa Merkau 

Yes, there may be something to that. -- David Bowen

I think Multiple Intelligences is one part of that. -- David Bowen

Number four on the agenda is another part, I think. -- David Bowen

This is true, but aren't they obligated to work with the students to help them? I am sure that is difficult, but how do you keep them all interested then? -- Janus Landrum 

i was fascinated by the (new) spiritual or existential intelligence...is that new to our modern age? -- Kathleen Asselin 

No -- David Bowen

Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, Confucious -- David Bowen

Are teachers really the nice caring teachers that we had when we were growing up? -- Tina Wilburn 

i think that in regards to multiple intelligences, there are some kids who just don't fit under the current I.Q. guidelines and ultimately score poorly. However these same kids can (and do) show strengths in the areas of hands-on work, or music, or art. If these kids aren't given the proper channels to funnel their strengths (which undoubtably become thier interests as well), then they become disinterested with traditional schooling and are seen as bad kids, or worse yet, dumb. -- Jack Beall 

Yes. -- David Bowen

But it hard for a teacher with 30 kids to treat each on individually. -- David Bowen

great point Jack -- Melissa Merkau 

I don't think ADHD is given consideration in a lot of schools either. -- Janus Landrum 

my brother was lumped into that category but he is very smart. just not the way they wanted him to be -- Azure Robertson 

so maybe our class sizes should be smaller or more individualized -- Kathleen Asselin 

I don't know. -- David Bowen

-when I read about multiple intelligences from Gardner, I kept thinking of the way the German schools systems are set-up. I studied german for awhile , have been there and my father in law is German. In Germany you are positioned at a very early age within the school system based on what you are assessed to be good at. Therefore if you have an aptitude for art more than likely you will test and attend a Kunstschule if you are excellent in science you would attend a Technologic school, so on and so forth. If you don't show aptitude for anything, you may get through highschool, but you will not get to go to the University. It seems to work, because the students follow are more linear path of thinking and comprehension. -- Gianna Bacher 

England also. -- David Bowen

My stepson had it in the Farmington School district and they went against all the state rules, until we brought it to their attention. They tried to make him look like a trouble maker. -- Janus Landrum 

I perfer the view of multiple intelligence over general intellegence. general intelligence ( the g factor) has too much basis in western culture, and does not allow for the differences that exist between cultures that make certain elements of intelligence more valuable or honored than others -- Tiffany Russell 

Well, Gardner says that each of us is strong in one or at most two of these nine areas. -- David Bowen

In the New York Times article he went through his seven creative giants and categorized them -- David Bowen

I think that todays teachers are dealing with behavioral problems that shuld be controlled before they enter school. Therefore it's harder for them to teach and give individual attentions when they have to stop and dicipline students. -- Tina Wilburn 

But as Jack said, some of the behavioral problems may follow from not being allowed to do what you do well. -- David Bowen

so mthere are no "jacks of all trades"? -- Azure Robertson 

That's what he says. -- David Bowen

the only thing i would be sceptical of in the german system is that a student would be boxed into a certain pigeon hole and not be able to expand in other areas...sometimes creativity bloosmsons later in life -- Kathleen Asselin 

Our chair, Stuart Henry, was boxed in in England. -- David Bowen

I was boxed in in Junior High - the stupid teracher didn't udnerstand a problem she assigned, and recommedned I stay back. -- David Bowen

i think the 'jack of all trades' is really all about interdisciplinary studies -- Kathleen Asselin 

I know Stuart... -- Melissa Merkau 

I agree it is hard for teachers to meet all student needs, but it is not as hard as you might think...with proper training and materials, MOST teachers could teach to the different modes that various students require...it would end up benefiting ALL the students, but teachers run into two roadblocks, 1) their comfort level with doing things status quo, and 2) time to develop the lessons. -- Jack Beall 

how so? -- Tiffany Russell 

Why not more than one or two? -- Janus Landrum 

Well, he is a psychologist, and I guess he doesn't see exam[ples of it -- David Bowen

Parents should be observer of potential in their child -- Bernard Chevalier 

Yes, and so should teachers. -- David Bowen

But there are bad examples all around. -- David Bowen

That's right Benard -- Tina Wilburn 

A lot of teachers, if you talk to them, at least at the College level, say they filter the "good" and "bad" students. -- David Bowen

ah yes....but sometimes parents do not like what they see in their children -- Melissa Merkau 

yes bernard. i think too many parents try to leave it soley up to the school system -- Azure Robertson 

Well, Gardner says one or two is what you get to be good at. -- David Bowen

Has everyone seen that list of the intelligences? -- David Bowen

Azure good point...parents need to be involved in their kids education -- Kathleen Asselin 

College teachers pick out good and bad? -- Janus Landrum 

and then the parents actually stifle the child and if the teacher pushes the child in that creative field....they end up confused? -- Melissa Merkau 

No where is the list? -- Tina Wilburn 

bowen, yes -- Tiffany Russell 

I guess I can see his point, but you might be able to be a little better in more than two -- Janus Landrum 

I found that moving from one school district to another pulled my daughter back when she was scoring high and in gifted class in grosse pointe. -- Ana Ross 

the list is on the agenda -- Melissa Merkau 

Oh yeah, there it is! -- David Bowen

agenda -- Azure Robertson 

yes -- Azure Robertson 

Bernard, yes. atleast allow creativity to flourish in their child even if they are not fond of the particular choice of the child. Such as if a parent doesn't like chess, but the child does...they should still be supportive -- Tiffany Russell 

Linguistic intelligence, logical-mathematical, etc. -- David Bowen

The multiple intelligences, that is -- David Bowen

That'g right Tiffany -- Bernard Chevalier 

Freud was strong in intrapersonal intelligence - understanding yourself very well and being able to use that understanding -- David Bowen

Frued analyzed himself and came up with the idea of the unconscious -- David Bowen

Before, when stuff popped out, it was a surpise to people -- David Bowen

Why did Gardner add the spiritual existential intelligence to his list? -- Kathleen Asselin 

it is so tempting and accepted to conform to what society says is the norm....it blazes a more secure path...those that do not conform, although many times happy, do face more uphill struggles to make their marks in society....I think schools are pressured to produce what society deems are "good citizens" and "good students"...and I do agree that parents have to recognize their kids' talents and work to foster them to get a competitive edge, or at the very least introduce them to the "field" -- Jack Beall 

he also did a lot of coke, how come that always gets forgotten about Freud? -- Jack Beall 

Did Picasso understand himself? -- Bernard Chevalier 

I don't think so - Picasso doesn't appear to have written a lot about his painting - he just did it -- David Bowen

The coke helped him see things differently. -- Janus Landrum 

That's right Tiffany. My son does all of the things that I didn't. That's because I like girl things and he's a boy, but whatever he wants to do I see to it that he learns and I support him always. I'm helping him to build a future -- Tina Wilburn 

I don't know why Gardner added spritiualexistential -- David Bowen

Was that Kathy that asked that? -- David Bowen

Jack, YES! people give freud more credit and forgivance than he often deserves -- Tiffany Russell 

He understood himself extermely well - found out that we had an unconscious -- David Bowen

Now it is obvious to us -- David Bowen

But he was first -- David Bowen

yes that was me -- Kathleen Asselin 

I think in the article he may have mentioned Gandhi -- David Bowen

So Janus, are you saying that he wouldn't have seen things differently without cocaine? If that were the case, then maybe modern psycology owes more of a debt to Columbia than Freud -- Jack Beall shout

I fortget the article now where he added that, and the naturalist intelligence. -- David Bowen

not that it was right but the drugs were not illegal then right? -- Azure Robertson 

No - how do you think Coke got its name? -- David Bowen

They were not illegal then. -- David Bowen

they used it in coca cola -- Azure Robertson 

Yes -- David Bowen

I agree that freud did introduce people to the idea of the unconscious...but I prefer carl jungs expansions on the idea -- Tiffany Russell 

Well, Jung got the basic idea from Freud -- David Bowen

Freud was first -- David Bowen

But can you explain Jung's idea? -- David Bowen

I think the naturalist intellegence is important to the future and perhaps different intellegences will be discovered as humans evolve -- Kathleen Asselin 

yes i am having some right now......Coca Cola that is -- Jack Beall shout

We are not evolving verymuch today -- David Bowen

Frued activity would land him in jail today -- Bernard Chevalier 

yep -- Tiffany Russell 

Tiffany - Jung? -- David Bowen

I don't know much about Jung -- David Bowen

technologically were are evolving. quite fast actually -- Azure Robertson 

Yes, but our genes are not evolving, because we can evolve technologically -- David Bowen

well I know that jung believed that there was a collective unconscious and that within that collective unconscious shared by all beings exists archetypes (commonly found in mythology such as hero's) -- Tiffany Russell 

Oh yeah, collective unconscious. I remember that. -- David Bowen

David i think i disagree...my daughter can multi task better than i can... isnt that evolving? with all our technoloby we need to learn to multi task -- Kathleen Asselin 

but not so much mentally and physically-i see what you mean -- Azure Robertson 

I don't know Azure, we might be starting to slow. I think the foreign countries are beginning to evolve fast -- Janus Landrum 

Evolution here in the sense of genetic change. -- David Bowen

Yes, social change is happenign more rapidly todya. -- David Bowen

The foreign countries are beginning to evolve fast because they have so far to come! -- Jack Beall shout

-sorry, earthlink decided to boot me out for awhile -- Gianna Bacher 

Bad earthlink! -- David Bowen

True -- Janus Landrum 

so true jack -- Melissa Merkau 

i was n't just speaking about the U.S. but the world -- Azure Robertson 

Yes -- David Bowen

The way we think is evolving -- Kathleen Asselin 

Not clear. -- David Bowen

If you mean the basi brain mechanisms. -- David Bowen

That seems to be largely the same as 5 million years ago -- David Bowen

Barin size, shape, bumps and stuff -- David Bowen

Not much change is evident there. -- David Bowen

Multi tasking is a mental skill...i think my daughter's ability to multi task is better than mine and mine ability is better than my parents -- Kathleen Asselin shout

At least physically. -- David Bowen

Now our brains are shaped by experience, maybe that is changing -- David Bowen

i believe that we evolved too quickly in a technological sense....without looking at what the future would bring...and now we have to rethink our strategy to reverse damage that some of this technology has brought upon our society (i.e. pollution / etc) -- Melissa Merkau 

Yes, but we ould never know enough. -- David Bowen

David thats what i am talking about -- Kathleen Asselin 

right on mellisa -- Kathleen Asselin shout

What? -- David Bowen

The social influence? -- David Bowen

yes -- Kathleen Asselin shout

-social consciousness has not evolved w/technology -- Gianna Bacher 

Kathleen, well as generations progress we have to juggle more and more tasks and skills and therefore it would appear that the next generations ability to multitask is better than the previous...but actually it is just adaptive survival -- Tiffany Russell 

We can focus more today thanb hunter-gatherers coudl -- David Bowen

They had to worry aboutthe next meal all the time. -- David Bowen

No social consciousness has not, because it would take away from the almighty dollar -- Janus Landrum 

i believe that we multi task better today simply because our world is a busier place....for instance....my mom did not work....therefore she had more time on her hands to get things done....and most of us today work...even if we are moms....and it is something that we have to do....because of our lack of time.... -- Melissa Merkau 

Yes, that could be. -- David Bowen

David, i think our focus is different from the hunter gathers -- Kathleen Asselin 

Absolutely -- David Bowen

are we not socializing right this minute? Would this have happened without technology? -- Jack Beall 

I agree tiffany -- Kathleen Asselin 

OK, moving on -- David Bowen

Multi tasking is a way of the world these days, if you can't you most likely can't keep up -- Janus Landrum 

Well, there is some evidence that multitasking doesn't work - we just do a lot of things, but each badly -- David Bowen

-sociologically we are still trying to evolve but technological advances are out pacing us. I mean, are you ready to see a robot walking down the street or performing a function in some store or factor that looks human but is actually a robot?---think about the weirdness of it all. It really brings to mind questions about the purpose of our own existence and our tactile sense don't you think -- Gianna Bacher 

I don't think we can outpace ourselves - if we couldn't keep up then we couldn't develop the new stuff. -- David Bowen

i tend to think i would rather be bad doing a lot of things then bad only doing a couple things -- Jack Beall 

david, lol -- Tiffany Russell 

??? -- David Bowen

That is true also. -- Janus Landrum 

LOL - I know that - you mean about doing things badly? -- David Bowen

The key lays in our ability to be creative -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes, inour capacity for change. -- David Bowen

OK, now moving on -- David Bowen

yes, it's true -- Tiffany Russell 

Each of Gardner's seven has been passed by -- David Bowen

the situation is clearest for me with Einstein -- David Bowen

Einstein was a genious at Relativity -- David Bowen

But in another area, Quantum Mecahnics - atoms and stuff like that - he never could accept that -- David Bowen

That happened in the 1920's and 30's -- David Bowen

I think the most creative of the seven was either Gandhi or Graham -- Jack Beall 

Well, Einstein made pretty big changes -- David Bowen

Jack why/ -- Kathleen Asselin 

What type of dance has replaced Grahams? -- Kathleen Asselin 

Well, that is interesitng about Graham -- David Bowen

There was just an article recently about Twyla Tharp -- David Bowen

Saying that she is the most important American artist today -- David Bowen

Not just dancer - the most important artist -- David Bowen

Freer form than Graham -- David Bowen

Why? -- Janus Landrum 

I think it is that Tharp is less constrained -- David Bowen

who is that -- Azure Robertson 

Does her dance also reflect the way she feels? -- Janus Landrum 

i am not familiar with tharp -- Kathleen Asselin 

She came to Ann Arbor two years ago -- David Bowen

i don't believe that any kind of dance has replaced Graham's....but she became a pioneer into letting one not be afraid to experiment with that not of the norm....and that dance has since evolved....but not replaced.... -- Melissa Merkau 

Well, what is interesting there is that Tharp is involved in a revival of Graham! -- David Bowen

Graham danced in The Rite of Spring -- Ana Ross 

Makes sense. -- Janus Landrum 

good point mellisa...all our domains evolve not really replaced -- Kathleen Asselin 

I just thought that Graham forced people to look at dance as a way of communicating emotion and to tell a story, before it was done specifically to accompany a rhythm or music....she expanded the art form in a whole new direction which stimulated the thoughts and feelings of audience members; prior to that the audience just wanted to be entertained....not moved emotionally or spiritually. -- Jack Beall shout

This is a point I wanted to get to - Gardner's seven have been bypassed, but are still relevant anyway -- David Bowen

That would be interesting. -- Janus Landrum 

just viewing the potraits of Graham, she facinates me with what she could do with her body -- Bernard Chevalier 

Tharp is known for pushing her dancers -- David Bowen

Graham's dances are being still performed -- David Bowen

There is a female impersonator (guy) that impersonates Graham -- David Bowen

Now, that means you have ARRIVED!!! -- David Bowen

I believe Graham also changed the mindset regarding "the traditional body type". There were many talented dancers that never fit the physical aesthetics and therefore, could never progress in their training, one of the things that I remember most about the advent of "modern dance" was that these limitations were no more, at least that is what I have heard from those who study dance. -- Gianna Bacher 

where does this impersonator perform? -- Melissa Merkau 

yuck -- Jack Beall 

through her dance company right? -- Melissa Merkau 

most creative people seemed 'pushy' -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes, because they still are read today, and if Tharp is bringing back some of Graham that is relevant. -- Janus Landrum 

So Tharp and Graham's troupe and this female impersonater are all getting together -- David Bowen

Some impersonnators are very good -- Janus Landrum 

Richard Move (real name is - I can't find it in the article right now -- David Bowen

Kathy, they probably seem pushy because they think they are all that sometimes. -- Janus Landrum 

since they are appointed by the president. -- Ana Ross shout

I might take the LSAT and I am interested in finding out more on the legalities on Graham.I have just been a 7 month relationship, our parent's live next door to each other, his dad is a federal judge. He told me people BOW to his dad. -- Ana Ross 

isnt micmicing the sincerest form of flattery? -- Kathleen Asselin 

HAAA! -- Gianna Bacher 

pushy, is the motivator -- Tina Wilburn 

when being mcreative you sometimes might have to be "pushy" to get your point across -- Azure Robertson 

Part of being creative is WANTING to be creative -- David Bowen

Gardner says that all of his seven were involved in image buidling -- David Bowen

Buidling the image of being creative -- David Bowen

I guess if no one is listening to you -- Janus Landrum 

i am not sure if creative people seem pushy....many seem as though they are recluses....living in their world.....and not really participating in the real world -- Melissa Merkau 

I think they're pushy because they feel that have a voice that needs to be heard over that of others within that moment and they need to get their point across -- Tiffany Russell 

Yes -- David Bowen

And they want to be creative, and want to be seen as creative -- David Bowen

Still looking for Richard Move's real name! -- David Bowen

-yes, Dr. Bowen, like Picasso and even Eliot migrating to Paris to submerse themselves in the "bohemian" atmosphere. I even read that Parisian creatives had there favorite drink Absinthe!!!!! -- Gianna Bacher 

Yes - now that was really bad stuff, from what I read. -- David Bowen

did all of gardners people want to be creative/ gandhi just wanted to protest the british and form a new government -- Kathleen Asselin 

Gardner says they all were invovled in image-building -- David Bowen

But you are right - not sure about Ganhi there. -- David Bowen

so absinthe is ok but not coke?? they are both illegal now-in our country at least -- Azure Robertson 

Yes -- David Bowen

Although absinthe is really difficult to get, I hear -- David Bowen

i believe in a way that Eliot somewhat started out by writing as a way of clearing his mind from all of the unhappiness that he was facing -- Melissa Merkau 

Could be -- David Bowen

Davidthe idea of image building makes sense for gardners creative people -- Kathleen Asselin 

Stravisnky is perhaps the clearest example -- David Bowen

Eliot did not necessarily start out to be a famous literary... -- Melissa Merkau 

If they were not illegal then, what made them make it illegal later? I don't mean to sound stupid. -- Janus Landrum 

They are dangerous -- David Bowen

Absinthe is poisonous -- David Bowen

Gardner says eliot had hallucinations i wonder what from? -- Kathleen Asselin 

Youdon't always need a haluciogen or however you spell it -- David Bowen

Stravinsky---now there is a cat i'd like to party with -- Jack Beall 

I know they are dangerous, but way back when did they not think that? -- Janus Landrum 

Right -- David Bowen

Maybe Eliot was hanging out on freud's couch -- Jack Beall 

Andyou said yuck to me! -- David Bowen

why Jack? -- Melissa Merkau 

stravinksy seemed a little cruel...sadistic...what is the attraction jack? -- Kathleen Asselin 

Picasso was the sadistic one -- David Bowen

i think stravinsky's amazing! -- Azure Robertson 

Yes -did youlike that excertp on Amazon? -- David Bowen

Drugs were not as easy to get. Now it has gotten out of control and can easly be gotten -- Tina Wilburn 

Jack, just wants to have Stravinsky play and he can jam with him. Ha-Ha -- Janus Landrum 

Very nice indeed -- Ana Ross 

Absinthe is very difficult to get in the US, I think -- David Bowen

yes. i bought the cd! -- Azure Robertson 

Yeah, you said. Cool! -- David Bowen

I loved Stranvinksy's music but i dont think i'd like to hang out with him -- Kathleen Asselin 

Stravinsky did some amazing composing -- Janus Landrum 

Now, they have all become somewhat old-fashioned and yet still famous -- David Bowen

And some of Einstein's stuff is still highly relevant -- David Bowen

classic -- Azure Robertson 

I believe I read that a lot of composers are a bit weird. -- Janus Landrum 

Frued's therapy is being rep-recognized -- David Bowen

I have always been into music and would like to know what really motivated Stravinsky and what he was really like in person -- Melissa Merkau 

There have bene legal battles over Graham's dances recently -- David Bowen

There has to be a video on him somewhere. -- Janus Landrum 

Don't think so -- David Bowen

what is rep-recognized -- Azure Robertson 

re-recognized - sorry -- David Bowen

Janus - I have heard that hockey goalies are a bit eccentric as well! -- Melissa Merkau 

National Geographic or anybody like that did not do anything on him? Amazing -- Janus Landrum 

Stravisnky? -- David Bowen

None of them showed any compassion, especially Picasso and Stravinsky and they way they treated their children -- Bernard Chevalier 

Yes - they are not good role models. -- David Bowen

You may not want your kids to grow up to be like these people. -- David Bowen

That is funny Melissa, and to a point true, but I am a hockey fan so I won't go there. -- Janus Landrum 

I am somewhat intimidated by these genius types...one of my favorite authors is ann rice and she is eccentric but i still would like to meet her -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes, Stravinsky -- Janus Landrum 

Gardner's seven were moody, missed out on family and friends a lot -- David Bowen

Stravinsky's career was built on a inter-disciplinarian approach adn reamined so, he was constantly making connections to fuel is creative side like choreography and its relation to music, poetry etc...... -- Gianna Bacher 

And cutting out his friends -- David Bowen

In all honesty.....my mom did not treat me very well either when i was a child....but it was simply because she didn't know any better.....maybe Picasso and Stravinsky did not know any better either..... -- Melissa Merkau 

I am sure there are some since his seven that are like that too, why do you think? -- Janus Landrum 

I think they were so conerned with their domain -- David Bowen

People were secondary -- David Bowen

-music became his true friend -- Gianna Bacher 

Oh, makes sense -- Janus Landrum 

isnt it strange that we educate our children, want them to be creative...but we find Gardners creative people bad role models for our children -- Kathleen Asselin 

But not Csik's people - very happy, but somewhat less creative -- David Bowen

but isn't part of being exceptionally creative being different, therefore a little weird or excentric? -- Azure Robertson 

Yes - pursuing the domain -- David Bowen

People don't matter as much -- David Bowen

I don't think it is the creativity end we don't agree with. It is the way they acted, or treated others sometimes. -- Janus Landrum 

Yes -- David Bowen

maybe thats the key david...less creative...but more happy? -- Kathleen Asselin 

May be. -- David Bowen

If Relativity is area A foir Einstein, and Quantum Mechanics area B, Eisntein still rules Relativity, but he could never accept ?Quantum Mechanics. -- David Bowen

so are they martyrs of sort -- Azure Robertson 

I am not sure they would agree -- David Bowen

speaking of giving or cutting out friends....body builders often have this problem because they have to keep their bodies at their leanest...but peer pressures become too much to handle...so they stop seeing these friends all together....simply because they will never be successful if they continue to hang out with them.... -- Melissa Merkau 

They might want us to feel for them that way -- Janus Landrum 

I don't think they looked fo that -- David Bowen

Kathy -didn't you comment on Graham? -- David Bowen

I don't see them as Martyrs -- Janus Landrum 

Janus, i dont think gardners people really care about the opinions of otheers -- Kathleen Asselin 

i saw a lot of the creaters as "users"...people who just use others to get ahead and then ditch them.....I think it is ok to network...but please -- Jack Beall 

A lot of women cannot accept Picasso as creative because of th ewayy he treated the women around him -- David Bowen

I think healthy friends should balance everything -- Ana Ross 

I did comment on graham david -- Kathleen Asselin 

---sometimes pursuing you interest cuts into you social skills, they say that conversation is an art. If you are spending hours in a laboratory toiling away on your research, or hours perfecting a musical score, it does not leave a lot of time for social conditioning. and if your sharing that space w/others doing like things they are in the same boat! -- Gianna Bacher 

Lots of Freud's circle committed suicide - did youpick that up? -- David Bowen

Gandhi abandoned wife and child -- David Bowen

picasso did treat women badly but some of the images he produced of women were beautiful -- Kathleen Asselin 

-that is why most of Gardners seven surrounded themselves w/"like" minded individuals. and even so these friendships did -- Gianna Bacher 

Perhaps -- David Bowen

i wonder if either of them would say it was worth it -- Melissa Merkau 

did not turn out to be the best---yes Dr. Bowen I did read that -- Gianna Bacher 

Again, as someone said here, I don't think that other people were their priority -- David Bowen

But I want to make sure to get back to Gandhi here. -- David Bowen

Hmmmm....what about balancing all aspects of life.... friends, family,health, studying, spritual..did I miss something? -- Ana Ross 

David, do you think that the sucides of freuds friends motivated him to pursue his studies into the unconcious? -- Kathleen Asselin 

I think Freud drove them to suicide - that is what Gardner implies -- David Bowen

No they di what they wanted, and they said what they wanted. -- Janus Landrum 

good question Kathy -- Melissa Merkau 

I believe that -- Janus Landrum 

Freud criticized his circle harshly -- David Bowen

Those Wednesday seminars or gatherings - vicious -- David Bowen

They all had to report and then he cut them up -- David Bowen

Dis that change any thing? -- Janus Landrum 

??? -- David Bowen

Typos -- David Bowen

then he was quite sadistic, too -- Azure Robertson 

he should have brought out the Twister board to liven things up -- Jack Beall 

ana, i agree that balance was missing from most of gardners creative people but csiks people managed their lives better but were csiks people less creative -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes -- David Bowen

Did his criticizing the circle change anything? -- Janus Landrum 

Well, the people got depressed and killed themselves, according to Gardner -- David Bowen

At least he implies that,. doesn't come right out with saying that. -- David Bowen

But Gandhi -- David Bowen

Gandhi died, as many of these people did, feeling they had been passed by and were no longer looked up to they way they were in the beginning -- David Bowen

That also happen in some of Mihaly studies -- Bernard Chevalier 

Not to that extent, I don't hink -- David Bowen

i don't think that i would allow what someone else has to say to lead me to suicide....do you think that Freud "chose" people specifically because they were "weaker" than he was? -- Melissa Merkau 

A lot of peopel were weaker than Freud -- David Bowen

Weaker than Picasso -- David Bowen

Wekater than Graham -- David Bowen

bernard, but csiks people really didnt care about fame as much as gardners people -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes -- David Bowen

But that was a different time and if they followed and hung on his every word, they would have been brought to suicide -- Janus Landrum 

Well, it was remarkable how many of Freud's discussion circle committed suicide. -- David Bowen

Seven, I remember, out of 40 perhaps -- David Bowen

Crack kills -- Jack Beall 

OK, Gandhi -- David Bowen

Freud had that authority type personality -- Bernard Chevalier 

Picasso too -- David Bowen

if Freud were alive today....do you think so many in his circle would commit suicide? -- Melissa Merkau 

hanging out with creative people some times kills -- Kathleen Asselin 

You are in for a wild ride -- David Bowen

At least -- David Bowen

OK, Gandhi -- David Bowen

I think you see some of that in High schools today. Kids seem to have intense relationships with some of their friends, that they act as if something that happened to their friend is life or death. Some kids have followed others in killing or suicide. -- Janus Landrum 

Gandhi -- David Bowen

Gandhi died feeling he was a failure -- David Bowen

-Charisma, charisma charisma, like gardner stated that those who entered Gandhis inner-circle could not tell a lie! -- Gianna Bacher 

He felt the Nazis would not be susceptible to his methods -- David Bowen

The British were basically decent - just make it clear that they were being horrible, and they would fold. But the Nazis were something else. -- David Bowen

what a shame to devote your life to something and then feel as though you were a failure -- Melissa Merkau 

Janus, kids folow kids, hopefully adults are better equipped -- Kathleen Asselin 

well, creative people tend to be pretty hard on themselves. their own worst critic -- Azure Robertson 

Mellissa, i think people are more questioning today and as a result whould not kill themselves just because of a mentor -- Kathleen Asselin 

But here is the point about Gandhi -- David Bowen

I don't Freud nor Piscasso would receive as much recognition in today's society; maybe Freud would! -- Bernard Chevalier 

About Gandhi, his methods have been built upon -- David Bowen

Ghandi tried to create a story a way of being that others could follow -- Janus Landrum 

Too late for Gandhi to know -- David Bowen

But built upon nonetheless -- David Bowen

This is #4 on the agenda -- David Bowen

What has been done is to remove the power of an occupier -- David Bowen

Occupiers depend upon the native residents to make the society go -- David Bowen

Martin Luther King followed gandhi...but was assassinated -- Kathleen Asselin 

And also criticized recently for being naive, like Gandhi -- David Bowen

Gandhi appears to have been about a cause more t5han anything else. -- Bernard Chevalier 

About organizing oppressed peopl -- David Bowen

To stand up and be morally superior -- David Bowen

And win over a basically decent population, like the british -- David Bowen

But recently, Gandhi's methods have been extended. -- David Bowen

But he didn't just organize the people, he sacrificed his own comfort to make his point known....most leaders don't do this -- Jack Beall 

-i think Gandhi felt he failed, because he was unable to provide a non-violent solution for Indias occupation by the British, he realized that India would have to revolt against the British, He also was unable to unify the differnet religious sects and people that India is composed of.--these may be great failings indeed, but Gandhi did set the ground work for massive non-violent movements -- Gianna Bacher 

Gandhi basically overthrew the Brisith -- David Bowen

But felt he couldn't overthrow the Nazis -- David Bowen

-true -- Gianna Bacher 

Extended by who or what? -- Bernard Chevalier 

There is a book, A Force More Powerful, about this extension -- David Bowen

To a case of a basically occupeir, like the nazis -- David Bowen

the occupier depends upon the natifve population to make the society go -- David Bowen

Just withdraw cooperation fully, collectively, all at once -- David Bowen

The occupier cannot get things done, they collapse -- David Bowen

Solidarity helped overthrow the communist rule in Poland and eventually led to the bringing down of the Berlin wall -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes. -- David Bowen

In the revolt in Croatia, the Croations sent the Serb soliders off on wasted mission -- David Bowen

They witheld information -- David Bowen

All at once -- David Bowen

The Serb regime collapsed in four days -- David Bowen

They didn't know what was going on, couldn't get things done -- David Bowen

Now, the Serbs killed whomever they identified as a rebel -- David Bowen

You have to be prepared for that -- David Bowen

was the conflict all nonviolent in croatia? -- Kathleen Asselin 

There was a lot of violence beforehand -- David Bowen

But the four days, the Serbs were neutralized -- David Bowen

Solidarity once had a great impact in this country; but now I don't know -- Bernard Chevalier 

Well, what happens afterwards can be a problem -- David Bowen

What happens after Gandhi is a problem -- David Bowen

What happens after King can be a problem -- David Bowen

Not perfect, but still I think ,self-determination is better -- David Bowen

in case i don't get a chance to tell you, thanks for the class, i found it very interesting and educational. good luck to all and you too David -- Jack Beall 

OK - comments about the class -- David Bowen

Last item on the agenda -- David Bowen

Thanks, Jack -- David Bowen

What about the book Creativity? -- David Bowen

I liked the class, and I really liked unchat. -- Janus Landrum 

Yes, it is fun -- David Bowen

A winner, I thinkn -- David Bowen

Jack, have a good summer and hope to run into you again. -- Janus Landrum 

but king and ganhi can act as a catalyst for effective social change -- Kathleen Asselin 

I really liked the unchat -- Kathleen Asselin 

Yes, they were catalysts, and the problems are those poeopel's problems now, for them to solve -- David Bowen

I enjoyed creativity after all -- Bernard Chevalier 

Good luck everyone! -- Tina Wilburn 

Great course, Thanks Dr. Bowen for making it interesting and fun -- Janus Landrum 

Last day to turn in eassy #4? -- Ana Ross 

I really liked the unchat sessions. The reading material was good, too. -- Azure Robertson 

i liked the unchat sessions more than i do the face to face meetings...not because i don't like meeting classmates....but we are more apt to participate in conversation..... -- Melissa Merkau 

Bye Gianna..and thanks to you and Janus for letting me use some of your comments in my papers -- Kathleen Asselin 

i found the class interesting as well...... -- Melissa Merkau 

Good Luck to everyone! -- Janus Landrum 

Book Ratings...Creativity (4 out of 10), Corporate Creativity (10 out of 10), Creating Minds (8 out of 10) -- Jack Beall 

OK, thanks -- David Bowen

But wouldn't it be a shame to miss out on all the happiest people, the best examples? -- David Bowen

It was great meeting all of you.....i wish you all the best....have a great and safe summer too! -- Melissa Merkau 

Bernard, good! I'm glad you came to enjoy it! -- Tiffany Russell 

Dr Bowen would you let me know what I need -- Bernard Chevalier 

Thanks to Dr. B. the class was interesting and challenging and i loveed the Flow cds...inspiring...have a good summer everyone -- Kathleen Asselin 

still an unchat on the 22nd? -- Azure Robertson 

NO! -- David Bowen

I will be grading!!! -- David Bowen

I enjoyed this class immensely it certainly gave me some groundwork regarding thinking about my own creativity and how I may develop this in my life and others in my life. -- Gianna Bacher 

When can we expect our grades on Creating Minds essay? for the course? -- Jack Beall shout

I hoep each of you gets to understand something about what you can do for yourself -- David Bowen

Last day for Essay 4. -- David Bowen

Hmm -- David Bowen

I think I have a better understanding -- Janus Landrum 

When can you get Essay 4 in? -- David Bowen

bowen, maybe you can choose certain chapters out of the creativity book by csik for your students to read next time, instead of the entire book -- Tiffany Russell 

That's an idea. Any suggestions? -- David Bowen

so is this basically it then? turn our papers in tonight by 11. no more postings? -- Azure Robertson 

David...thanks for everything.....i have a feeling that you will see me in your Fall, 2006 course! -- Melissa Merkau 

26 postings for 4 credits, right? -- David Bowen

I need until Friday for Essay #4 -- Tina Wilburn 

You got it. -- David Bowen

Chapters out of Creativity? -- David Bowen

David, about your fall class...is it online? -- Kathleen Asselin 

how many total postings for 3 credits? -- Jack Beall shout

Meets every other wek. Should I email the flier? -- David Bowen

I still need to add some postings, we can still post correct? -- Janus Landrum 

Yes - don't forget the two unofficial unchats count two postings each -- David Bowen

over and out everyone! -- Melissa Merkau 

I have until when to complete my postings i guess is what i am asking -- Azure Robertson 

Friday? -- David Bowen

and the SET counts for 2 -- Jack Beall 

Yes -- David Bowen

david, please send me a flier...thanks for everything -- Kathleen Asselin 

Thanks -- Tina Wilburn 

Me too. -- Ana Ross 

OK -- David Bowen

I had to miss those two because of work, but I will add some by Friday. Thanks -- Janus Landrum 

Did you do the SET? -- David Bowen

That coutns two -- David Bowen

David, please email me a flier on your fall class...okay? -- Kathleen Asselin 

OK -- David Bowen

bye everyone! have a wonderful spring/summer and the best of fortune in your journey's (educational and otherwise) -- Tiffany Russell 

Yes, I did, I forgot about that. -- Janus Landrum 

i believe i have everything turned in, so i will see you around David -- Jack Beall 

on my way with set -- Ana Ross 

i am still having issues with my wsu email i will let you know whenmi complete the SET -- Azure Robertson 

Call 313-577-4748 foir help with WSU email -- David Bowen

Dr Bowen please e-mail me -- Bernard Chevalier 

bye everyone...thanks for the memories -- Kathleen Asselin 

Ok, I am off to get ready for my Flow test. -- Janus Landrum 

OK! -- David Bowen

response? -- Jack Beall 

What? -- David Bowen

would i be able to have until friday to turn in my essay as well? -- Azure Robertson 

OK -- David Bowen

Jack? -- David Bowen

just wanted to confirm that i am all set.. -- Jack Beall 

Let me get back to you -- David Bowen

4 essays, 26 postings for you, Jack -- David Bowen

thank-you i may turn it in before -- Azure Robertson 

ok, goodbye -- Jack Beall shout

Plus 4 meetings or sumaries -- David Bowen

I think you are OK there, Jack. -- David Bowen

bye! -- Azure Robertson 

Bye -- David Bowen

OK, time to go -- David Bowen

-Hi Dr. Bowen, -- Gianna Bacher 

great. thanks again -- Jack Beall 

Gianna - I saw that I did make a mistake on that email that sent you into orbit -- David Bowen

Now I see why you were so worried -- David Bowen

I didn't read my own agenda right! Sorry -- David Bowen

Multitasking, probably -- David Bowen

OK, I am going. Good bye, everyone -- David Bowen

HHAAAAA!! thats o.k. I can be pretty intense! I appreciate all your feedback! I really enjoyed your class and I will looking forward to maybe taking another course w/you maybe Winter semseter? I have to take my senior seminar in fall -- Gianna Bacher 

Bye -- David Bowen